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Malinowo: Polish-Nazi Supression?


jon357 67 | 16,836
13 Feb 2021 #211
Your taking up that topic

As you know, the ttopic was 'taken up' already, both here and extensively in the media, both here in Poland and abroad.

We have to expect American opinion

We've had several, nobody objected (and nobody suggested that it's anything other than the opinion of individuals).

Looks like the case in question is going to the appeal courts, as a freedom of speech matter. Even some PiS-leaning academics are weighing in about the importance of not trying to censor historians.

There's some interesting comments today by Timothy Garton-Ash on similar matters. Are you familiar with him?
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
13 Feb 2021 #212
Hopefully most of Poland's academia (especially those connected with PiS) are able to speak about the downside of censoring historians. It will have a far more powerful impact.

Never heard of this Timothy chap, where can I read about it? Is it paid services? What newspaper? (Haven't been reading much newspapers lately, a lot of bureaucratic work to do)
Poloniusz 4 | 391
13 Feb 2021 #213
Timothy Garton-Ash

Just another self-important British globalist libtard.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
13 Feb 2021 #214
@Poloniusz
Is it that important to name all people? You know it's just a way of branding somebody (wether it's accurate or not is irrelevant) "He belongs with those guys! He is like THAT!"

I am able to read any source without major influence from the source unless it's relevant.
jon357 67 | 16,836
13 Feb 2021 #215
are able to speak about the downside of censoring historians. It will have a far more powerful impact.

Academics are certainly doing that at the moment!.

this Timothy chap

Professor of European Studies at Oxford University.

Google him, he writes extensively on Poland. Somewhat conservative in outlook but very sound and very impartial.

Poloniusz's stance on Hollywood

If he's so emotionally incontinent on the matter that seeing an opposing opinion causes him to lose control and disgrace himself, one would question whether an internet discussion forum is the best place for him to be.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
13 Feb 2021 #216
You evidently don't get out much

a Cheap shot!

stifling of academiv freedom

Nobody is stifling anything. Most likely some activist types wanted some fresh story to use it as a fodder for their activities as they have done in the past. This time it backfired into their faces as they know very little about facts, evidence and academical research, instead they rely on hutzpah and brazen insinuations. All they know about are their feelings and opinions. Rather than teach about the past they preach about imaginary moral transgressions as they see it at least according to the gospel of the neo-Marxism.

They F with the wrong people this time and now they whine and lie and ask for support from their ideological base in hope some sympathizes in high places will help them out of the pickle.
jon357 67 | 16,836
13 Feb 2021 #217
Nobody is stifling anything.

That's what the thread's about. Stifling of academic freedom by using the courts on a technicality involving two people, of the same name in Malinowo during the war.

Most likely some activist types wanted some fresh story

They did. Some nationalistic activists who sponsored a lawsuit that is causing much discussion right now. Trying to control the narrative by silencing historians.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
13 Feb 2021 #218
a lawsuit

You protest too much, If they would have done a good job there should be enough evidence to dismiss the lawsuit. Unless it is all just BS and insinuations they have no reason to panic.

technicality involving two people

Something that a proper research would let them to avoid. ..
jon357 67 | 16,836
13 Feb 2021 #219
a proper research

Who defines what is "proper research"?

protest

There are certainly plenty of people protesting about the attempt to censor academic research.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
13 Feb 2021 #220
Who defines what is "proper research"?

Academicals standards and due diligence. They actually teach those at universities, less and less but still... wait a minute you don't know that? it puts your claims about your education into a serious doubt.
jon357 67 | 16,836
13 Feb 2021 #221
Academicals standards and due diligence They actually teach those at universities

Which are certainly followed.

Therefore there's no reason for nationalistic organisations to sponsor politicised lawsuits or politicians to get involved, now, is there..

claims about your education

What claims are those?
Ironside 50 | 10,910
13 Feb 2021 #222
Which are certainly followed.

Evidently not. If they confused people ... technicality for some and a stigma for others,
jon357 67 | 16,836
13 Feb 2021 #223
If they confused people

It happens.

a stigma for others,

Unlikely (since the person is deceased and without descendants), and in any case usually corrected in the next edition of the book.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
15 Feb 2021 #224
It happens.

Hey I checked what it is all about. HA ! I was right. Evidently those two are a pair of lies that lives off selling - Poles here killing Jews narrative.

Absolutely disgusting and repulsing people who made the stuff up.
IF they are academics it must be in the Collage of Lies and Deception.
Well their brazen activity blew in their feces as they told lies about some random person who had kids and grandchildren and those didn't take kindly to them lies.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
15 Feb 2021 #226
@Ironside
Same with Gross, he published books about Poland which could been readable but, no sensationalism.

It is a pity they are dragging Poland down the mud for profits sake. I sense they could gone bitter over the years, writing and not earning as much as they hoped they would. Bitterness is quite dangerous (talking from own experience)

@Strzelec35
I am in a good mood today, I'll forgive you for badmouthing me. I'll start replying back to you
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #227
which could been readable

They're very readable and sold well. The controversy only increased worldwide sales.

It is a pity they are dragging Poland down the mud

The alternative is to censor (or self-censor) now, have nobody believe the narrative (and be sceptical of the good things too) then watch it all explode later.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
15 Feb 2021 #228
@jon357
I have no illusions of PiS's authoritarian tendencies, only problem is that it hasn't been solved internally but been heavily pushed internationally. Giving PiS basically freebies to score political points among those who are most interested in Polish sovereignty.

Instead of having an historical debate
OP Lyzko 29 | 7,245
15 Feb 2021 #229
Reminds me a little of the erstwhile "Historians' Debate" in Germany during the 198O's. The Right typically relativized the horror of the Holocaust and the Left stressed its horrible uniqueness.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
15 Feb 2021 #230
@Lyzko
Yeah, and there was no place for any honest good historical debate in Poland since 1939... Since 1945 it has been basically impossible and used as a propaganda tool to legitimize the communist authorities right to rule Poland.

So later on it almost became a sport to win historical arguments or a way to show opposition to the ruling party simply by disagreeing. Facts or not.

This tradition has continued on to this day among many Poles. Trying to do it as best as possible is quite hard when people from the outside not understanding this take sides without knowing it
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #231
t hasn't been solved internally but been heavily pushed internationally.

One does lead to the other.

Instead of having an historical debate

Where censorship (or perceived censorship) exists with the goal of preserving a national image, historical debate is inevitably compromised, not least due to few if any objective observers believing a compromised narrative.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
15 Feb 2021 #232
@jon357
The national image you speak of: Polish martyrdom

Can hardly be challenged in Poland (No matter which political side it is) as it's one of the few unifying factors among us Poles. Many a times people complain over being individualistic and not group minded enough (compared to the west, with a well functioning state, clean roads/pavements etc) which "activates" during a crisis like military invasion, national tragedy etc.

So that is a battle one can't possibly challenge, without battling it heavily. And at the slightest hint of arguments that were repeated by occupying powers. The argument becomes invalid, no matter the goal, feelings or logic.

It's simply a halt

Which is why it needs to be discussed internally first, otherwise it will only be seen as an attack
Novichok 1 | 2,013
15 Feb 2021 #233
Just as I asked the Germans here to quit apologizing for WW2, I wish Poles would stop explaining and self-crucifying for the fate of the Jews. To the best of my knowledge, Poles suffered the most with over 30,000 executed for helping Jews during the occupation. No other country comes even close in this respect. So, next time some troll starts another Poles and Jews thread, I have two words for you to use in response.
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #234
Can hardly be challenged in Poland

Poland has always had that uneasy balance between absolutism and relativism. A narrative of martyrdom can exist together with an acknowledgement that bad things happened too, that some people did bad things.

Which is why it needs to be discussed internally first,

Yes. And unfortunately attempts to stifle discussion, lawsuits etc don't advance any discussion internally while at the same time bringing issues to a wider and very objective audience.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
15 Feb 2021 #235
@Novichok
As long as there are immature kids wanting to rile up hatches, perceived to have been buried it will continue. Poland has good enough relations with Israel at the moment, it only remains to better relations with Hebrew diaspora in other parts of the world. If not, it will just continue endlessly.

And yes, I wish Poland was able to defend all her citizens in 1939. That failure is hard to blame on Poland alone, yet not withstanding The Polish state has a duty to all her citizens. I will grief every time thinking about it, no matter how much hate I will hear from anyone about Poland lost battle in 1939. It is one of many things that drive me, improve, overcome and do better
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #236
mmature kids

"Immature kids" aside, historians will always want to uncover something hidden, and as long as something's perceived as having been buried or suppressed, the books will sell all the better.
Novichok 1 | 2,013
15 Feb 2021 #237
The Polish state has a duty to all her citizens.

That simple and legally correct statement can immediately be twisted to imply that the Polish state was negligent in some way toward some groups.
Mr Grunwald 29 | 1,957
15 Feb 2021 #238
@Novichok
Which is why our watch is everlasting, watching out for twisters and their motivations. Standing our ground, not giving an inch away. Fighting at every possible doorstep, with every tool at our disposal. No matter the pain or suffering, our honor and duty remains. So help us God
jon357 67 | 16,836
15 Feb 2021 #239
Which is why our watch is everlasting

So help us God

Over the past 250 years, how well would you say that's gone?
Poloniusz 4 | 391
15 Feb 2021 #240
be twisted to imply that the Polish state was negligent in some way toward some groups.

And that is exactly what the reparations shakedown mob will do.

Has anyone else noticed that the narrative is always structured in terms of what Poland and Poles needed to do for Jews and not the other way around?

Indeed, Hitler had a pathological hatred of Poles. The Nazis invaded, destroyed, and occupied Poland. There are plenty of documented accounts of Poles risking their own lives to save Jews during the ravages of war. So where are the instances of Jews doing the same to help save Poles?

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