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Polish-German alliance.


celinski 31 | 1,258
5 Mar 2009 #121
You cannot blame ignorant crowd

Hey lets see if you are saying that as my windmills are gushing electricty?
lesser 4 | 1,311
5 Mar 2009 #122
Well...but so it is...

Not exactly. Pseudo-elites give them opportunity to speak out when they feel that their option win. Then they hide behind "will of people". Otherwise they don't ask people or ignore their choices. This is elementary knowledge about representative democracy in action.

Hey lets see if you are saying that as my windmills are gushing electricty?

Do you suggest that I'm wrong?
Ogorki - | 114
5 Mar 2009 #123
How exactly would you like the British to have got troops there?

So why did London guarantee Polands independents just before WWII - and give her false hope - and suggest that she had something to fight for?

The Polish troops in London begged the UK generals to be parachuted close to warsaw so they could help the warsaw uprising but UK lot refused so as not to upset Stalin. Generally thats what JulietEcho is banging on about. I assume she does not have the time/energy to aknowledge/appreciate/thank every brit that ended up somehow fighting (bravely) in Poland (even thought they deserve it). Brits fighting in poland were mostly shot down airmen, escapees from german camps and troops on missions who got trapped there etc. (still brave men)
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #124
I'm sorry for the off topic but how the bloody fudge did the baby shields made their way into discussion about energy politics?

Dunno, Germans used to make a lot of things from the human tissue - so why not the energy?
Ok, that was painful but I just couldn't resist ;-]
Sorry BB, I know that you are young and innocent. :-]
OP Sokrates 8 | 3,346
5 Mar 2009 #125
nno, Germans used to make a lot of things from the human tissue

Myth, some concentration camps wife allegedly made lamp covers from skin but it was never proven, the soap thing is jewish invented rubbish(the guy who claimed it was jewish), the alleged human fat soap "Warszawa" brand was in reality not made from humans at all, thats proven already.
celinski 31 | 1,258
5 Mar 2009 #126
concentration camps wife allegedly made lamp covers from skin

where is the lamp?
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #127
Myth, some concentration camps wife allegedly made lamp covers from skin but it was never proven, the soap thing is jewish invented rubbish(the guy who claimed it was jewish), the alleged human fat soap "Warszawa" brand was in reality not made from humans at all, thats proven already.

Are you sure? Can you provide a link to that information?
Ogorki - | 114
5 Mar 2009 #128
Nice to know in the case of Danzig, Breslau or Stettin...thanks! :)

Absolutely - you know those germans are very pushy tenants:) I beleive they do the same with deck chairs and poolside chairs:)

Yup....but still Germans roamed central Europe already there wasn't a Pole to see anywhere...

Thats because its a map showing G-E-R-M-A-N-I-C tribe movements.
Also, as the germs moved in the Slavs moved out. The slav tribes in the area of modern day Poland were called polonian slavs cos they farmed the planes (pole in polish) of central Poland, which was named after the planes - hence 'Polonia'. TADAAA!!!!

The Polonians were tall lethargic peoples and were not that bothered for a fight so scarpered when the big hairy germanics turned up on their doorstep going "uga booga!!!"

Erm...you should take another look at this map....red was only the beginning the other colours are the same tribes at different times expanding their territory...still no Poles!

yees I know...red was around 750BC, orangy colour around 500BC-1AD etc. This merely shows the grounds gained by the germs from the slavs.

And anyhow..are you still mad that my grandpa tried to kill your grandpa???
Still fighting the war???
It's over...first you lost, then we lost...now they are all dead anyhow....

No - some Russian guy was trying to kill my grandpa cos he lived in eastern poland.
Not still fighting the war - just prejudice.
Poland never loses - just goes underground for a while only to emerge again with it's honour and dignity intact.

Look I have maps too! :)
1) Inhabitants going back to 700BC
2) Slavic genetics aroung Europa (50% around modern day Poland) could quite possibly be controlling share me thinks :)





Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #129
Yad Vashem: Nazi soap stories 'invention'

isurvived.org/InTheNews/YadVashem-2NaziSoapStories.html

In 1990 samples from several soaps claimed to have been made from Jews were sent for DNA testing at Tel Aviv University. Likewise, those tests determined the soaps did not contain human fats.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_made_from_human_corpses

Mainstream scholars of the Holocaust consider the "soap myth" to be part of WWII folklore.[11]
Among others this view was held by the reputable Jewish historians Walter Laqueur,[12] Gitta Sereny,[13] and Deborah Lipstadt.[14] The same view was held by Professor Yehuda Bauer of Israel's Hebrew University and by Shmuel Krakowski, archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center.[1][2][3]

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/soap.html

The Soap Myth

"It's a general conception that the Nazis manufactured soap," says [Michael] Berenbaum [author of The World Must Know: The History of the Holocaust as Told in the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum], who was project manager for the USHMM before it opened in 1993 and headed the museum's research institute until 1997. "But those of us working in this area have not used it as an example [of Nazi atrocity] in the last 10 to 15 years.

We don't have any evidence that the Nazis actually manufactured soap with human bodies."

yees I know...red was around 750BC, orangy colour around 500BC-1AD etc. This merely shows the grounds gained by the germs from the slavs.

Not Slavs but Celts! There settled only Celts there before us....
Actually Danzig, Breslau and Stetting belongs to them!

Poland never loses - just goes underground for a while only to emerge again with it's honour and dignity intact.

That's an interesting way to call it!
And Germany never lost too...look, today we rule Europe!
OP Sokrates 8 | 3,346
5 Mar 2009 #130
Are you sure? Can you provide a link to that information?

I was not talking about Spanner but RIF and Warszawa brands, there is an existing myth that Germans produced human-fat derived soap on an industrial scale and thats proven false by IPN which compared the samples available, neither "Warszawa" nor "RIF" were made with human fat.

Spanner did make soap out of humans for his messed up experiments but that was a fringe case, not production for commercial use.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #131
For Spanner: holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/10/tests-show-that-nazis-used-human.html

The IPN investigation found that the soap in question produced by Professor Spanner was used to clean operating and autopsy rooms.

Harry
5 Mar 2009 #132
So why did London guarantee Polands independents just before WWII - and give her false hope - and suggest that she had something to fight for?

Why were Polish naval vessels running away from the Germans in late August 1939 and British naval vessels moving in exactly the opposite direction at the same time?

The Polish troops in London begged the UK generals to be parachuted close to warsaw so they could help the warsaw uprising

And the RAF had how many planes capable of such a mission?

but UK lot refused so as not to upset Stalin.

You need to read a little more history. Look particularly at the exchange of telegrams between Churchill and Roosevelt during the Warsaw Uprising. You'll see who refused and who was worried about upsetting Uncle Joe.

Generally thats what JulietEcho is banging on about.

No, she is just lying and trying to be offensive.

I assume she does not have the time/energy to aknowledge/appreciate/thank every brit that ended up somehow fighting (bravely) in Poland (even thought they deserve it).

She has been repeatedly shown the names and locations of men she denied the existence of and promised to put flowers on the graves of if they did exist. She responds by continuing to deny their existence. She is beneath contempt.
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #133
Spanner did make soap out of humans for his messed up experiments but that was a fringe case, not production for commercial use.

That's good that it was only an isolated case.

Something more pleasant: forum for expats in Germany

forum.expatica.com/Germany-like-Really-t60432.html&pid=776179&st=20
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #134
Apropos Rafal, concerning your link...did you read till the end, his conclusion?

historiography-project.com/misc/frenzsoap.html

...My effort, in the review of this document, has left me convinced and of the opinion that Mr. Mazur never made soap out of any kind of fat. I also have a serious doubt, of the greatest magnitude, that Dr. Spanner ever wrote any soap recipe.

Says it all....

Something more pleasant: forum for expats in Germany

Yeah...really pleasant!

reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSTRE4BG37N20081217

Expatriates also considered Germany the best country for expat integration overall, the results showed.

The survey asked 2,155 expats of different nationalities across 48 countries to rank their host country in four categories measuring integration - making local friends, joining community groups, learning the language and buying property.

digitaljournal.com/article/263316

Results of a survey from HSBC Bank International show Canada, Germany and Australia to be the friendliest countries in the world.

Ogorki - | 114
5 Mar 2009 #135
She has been repeatedly shown the names and locations of men she denied the existence of and promised to put flowers on the graves of if they did exist. She responds by continuing to deny their existence. She is beneath contempt.

This must be on another forum title cos there is nothing about that on this forum title.

Why were Polish naval vessels running away from the Germans in late August 1939 and British naval vessels moving in exactly the opposite direction at the same time?

I dunno. Do you?
I'm talking in context of the whole WWII and you focus on specific things. You are preventing a debate here. All we know about is Dunkirk.

And the RAF had how many planes capable of such a mission?

The Poles had their own aircraft which escaped and were parked up in Romania.
It was the man power that was denied.

You need to read a little more history. Look particularly at the exchange of telegrams between Churchill and Roosevelt during the Warsaw Uprising. You'll see who refused and who was worried about upsetting Uncle Joe.

Again - we both know that but Churchill was half the equation.

She has been repeatedly shown the names and locations of men she denied the existence of and promised to put flowers on the graves of if they did exist. She responds by continuing to deny their existence. She is beneath contempt.

There are monuments to the fallen all around warsaw including brits. In the large park just east of the river is a monument to an RAF crew shot down and killed during WWII.

This is obvious and cannot be denied - and she knows that. She is debating in the whole context of WWII. Poland was sold out - you can't deny that.

PS. The truth about Sikorski's death was locked away in a secret file for X amount of years after WWII for resons of national security. Fare enough. Just recently this time expired and the Polish Government wanted the file from the Brits. The Brits extended the secret file for another 70 years - with no explanation or reason. Why?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #136
Wasn't there just an official exhumation of the corpse lately?
JulietEcho 3 | 100
6 Mar 2009 #137
Would you really like me to find the names of all the other British and Commonwealth airmen who died fighting in the Warsaw Uprising?

YES!!!!!! Where in Krakow is that cementary? Locate it on Google maps.
Explain the official stand of British Government stand on not helping in Warsaw uprising... Where did those airmen come from? There were couple of symbolic flights, here is what Wikipedia writes about it:

"....The RAF made 223 sorties and lost 34 aircraft. The effect of these airdrops was mostly psychological-they delivered too few supplies for the needs of the insurgents, and many airdrops landed outside insurgent-controlled territory...."

It is all SYMBOLISM, compared to how many Poles fought FOR Britain:

".....The Polish armed forces in the west fought under the British command and numbered 195,000 in March 1944 and 165,000 at the end of that year, including about 20,000 personnel in the Polish Air Force and 3,000 in the Polish Navy. At the end of World War II, the Polish Armed Forces in the west numbered 195,000 and by July 1945 had increased to 228,000, most of the newcomers being released prisoners of war and ex-labor-camp inmates..."

Poles like you make me wish that Britain had joined the war on the side of the Nazis.

- Of course, you're a coward with your head stuck in your behind; typical limey. Lucky I don't meet too many of yous...
Babinich 1 | 455
6 Mar 2009 #138
Can you give an example when Nikolayevich put his theory in action before 1920?

I believe that Tukhachevsky used some similar tactics in the south of Russia during the Civil War.

I am not disparaging Piłsudski; nor the Poles. I am well aware of the impact of the Husaria.

I am just trying to give some credit to the father of 'Deep Operations'.

I am sure Zhukov's philosophy at Khalkhyn Gol was directly attributable to Tukhachevsky.
k98_man
6 Mar 2009 #139
Czarnobog - you are conveniently forgetting quite a few battles that Germanic and Polish armies fought side by side.

Poland never loses - just goes underground for a while only to emerge again with it's honour and dignity intact.

If that isn't nationalist, I don't know what is! xD

Bratwurst_Boy - I have neither the patience nor the time to argue with these people. It seems you do, so I'll just throw support to you. There is no problem with nationalism. I hope Germany grows more and more nationalist while still keeping a lid on tensions. It is possible to have national pride and respect and love your neighbors.
Rafal_1981
6 Mar 2009 #140
for some just the idea of a good relationship between Germany and Poland even today is not preferable

An alliance with Germany is like a dating a fat girl.
Everything works fine, you can have a lot of pleasure until you friends find out who your girlfriend is ;-D
Czarnobog - | 33
6 Mar 2009 #141
Czarnobog - you are conveniently forgetting quite a few battles that Germanic and Polish armies fought side by side.

Like which ones? Go ahead and name them.
sjam 2 | 541
6 Mar 2009 #142
The Polish troops in London begged the UK generals to be parachuted close to warsaw so they could help the warsaw uprising but UK lot refused so as not to upset Stalin.

And yet on august 3rd 1944 when General Stanisław Kopański sent General Anders a telegram to ask that a parachute unit be dispatched to emabattled Warsaw he repiled that he thought the decision of the Commander in Chief of the Underground Army to launch an uprising to be a complete disaster. (source IPMS. KGA 46/IV, telegram dated 03.August.1944)

On 9th of August General Anders sent a coded message to Gen. Sosnkowski, and in sharp terms criticised Warsaw's decision to launch the uprising. (source IPMS. KGA 46/IV; M.Zarzycki—Karta no.42 dated 2004 page 140).

Anderes also pointed out in radiogram No. 2081 dated 09/August/1944 "...the troops do not understand the aim of the Uprising in Warsaw... We consider the launching of the uprising to be a serious offence and we ask —who bears responsibilty for this?"

Gen. Sosnkowski had also earlier sent clear instructions to the Commander in Chief of the Underground Army in Warsaw forbidding a Rising, but this order was ignored in Warsaw.

So even Polish policy towards the uprising was not entirely as clear cut as sometimes presented. Maybe this should be another thread?
Harry
6 Mar 2009 #143
YES!!!!!! Where in Krakow is that cementary?

You are utterly pathetic. You have known for three months exactly where the cemetery is. As shown by this post:

Locate it on Google maps.

mapy.google.pl/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=pl&q=50.078611,+19.955278&jsv=148e&sll=52.025459,19.204102&sspn=6.044326,14.0625&ie=UTF8&geocode=FZMj_AIdTn4wAQ&split=0

the first grave you will (miraculously) find I will drive to and plant flowers and light some candles, and unlike your gay ass I stand behind my words.

Kindly post a photograph of the flowers and the candles on that grave.

Explain the official stand of British Government stand on not helping in Warsaw uprising...

It is impossible for me to explain that because it was not the position (official or otherwise) of the British government.

There were couple of symbolic flights, here is what Wikipedia writes about it:
"....The RAF made 223 sorties and lost 34 aircraft."

What a surprise! You say "a couple" and the real number turns out to be more than a couple of hundred. Why do you try to tell such pathetic lies?

Of course, you're a coward with your head stuck in your behind; typical limey.

Probably best if we don't discuss the bravery of the typical citizen of the USA. Especially in the context of assisting Poland during WWII....
k98_man
6 Mar 2009 #144
- The Siege of Vienna. Polish cavalry actually came to the rescue of German and Austrian troops fighting the Ottomans
- The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had support of the German states during two seperate wars with the Ottomans: 1620-1621 and 1633-1634

Only two I can think of from the top of my head...
IronsE11 2 | 442
6 Mar 2009 #145
The Polish troops in London begged the UK generals to be parachuted close to warsaw so they could help the warsaw uprising but UK lot refused so as not to upset Stalin.

They would have been the proverbial lambs to the slaughter...

the official stand of British Government stand on not helping in Warsaw uprising...

*rolls eyes* - Yes, it was because of Britain that the Warsaw Uprising failed. It was Roosevelt's number one priority... Stalin was eager to provide assistance... but it was Britain who are to blame...

It is all SYMBOLISM, compared to how many Poles fought FOR Britain

Yes, they were fighting FOR Britain - no self interest, a completely selfless, altruistic act?

coward with your head stuck in your behind; typical limey.

*Yawns* - Christ you are boring.

Maybe this should be another thread?

I'd rather you didn't, it would only turn in to another 'Britain was to blame for Polish suffering during and after WW2... etc etc' argument.

As for the thread title - frankly it doesn't matter, Poland would still have suffered greatly, and there would still be a minority of morons who continued to blame everything on the British government.
sjam 2 | 541
6 Mar 2009 #146
Airlift to Warsaw: The Rising of 1944: Neil D. Orpen: is an excellent book written by a South African pilot in the RAF who took part in the flights to Warsaw (along with British and Polish pilots) and that describes in detail the RAF flights to Warsaw. It was never going to be enough to change the outcome of the Rising given the challenges of flying thousands of miles over German lines from Italy without substantial Soviet support—which was never forthcoming.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,173
7 Mar 2009 #147
Harry if you want to understand the thing with Poland take an example of... NORWAY :D
British&French&Polish soldiers landed in Norway (I really don't care about the Finland help thing) so that they could help Norwegian soldiers fight the German Wehrmacht! THe British&French&Polish officially helped Norway with a group of soldiers fully capeable of representing it's country. Such thing didn't happen with Poland, we may understand the troubles of doing it, still it DIDN'T happen. Franly Norway couldn't be fully liberated/saved in 1940 since France got attacked and the forces had to withdraw

and to hold myself to the topic I would say Alliance between Germany and Poland is allmost impossible in any form. Even the NATO alliance is today wierd (Only because Poland has the need of an alliance with USA).
k98_man
7 Mar 2009 #148
Mr Grunwald - please don't be fooled. British forces didn't land in Norway to help the Norwegians. In fact they were on the way to taking over Norway before the Germans. It was mere luck (and good planning) that the Germans arrived first.

"...and all three Allies deserted the Americans on the question of indicting the Germans for launching an aggressive war."

Professor Andre Gros (French representative on the United Nations War Crimes Commission argued "We do not consider as a criminal act the launching of a war of aggression"...

"Fyfe was concerned that if the Germans were charged with attacking Norway, the British might be equally culpable, since their occupation forces had been only a destroyer's length behind"

"Justice at Nuremberg" by Robert E. Conot - It's even more prevelant to see these facts in this book seeing as how it has a very pro-Allied, anti-Axis author (or so it seems anyway).
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,173
7 Mar 2009 #149
Yes most Norwegians knows they planned it long time before German arrival but it would most likely be welcomed cause of our British relations. Tho it was some high ranked officers wich had sympathies with the Germans like the commander of Narvik. Still they were all welcomed and de facto they were liberating Norway. After the war it wasn't much occupation of Britts either...
k98_man
7 Mar 2009 #150
The Brits have this funny way of making occupation seem nicer than it is. They're sly like that...


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