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Polish-German alliance.


ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
4 Mar 2009 #31
Poles like you make me wish that Britain had joined the war on the side of the Nazis.

Ah, therein lies the true "heart of darkness". ... revealed. Thank you!
pawian 181 | 17,079
4 Mar 2009 #32
Yes Jews would have to die,

And? Polish national interest preceds all others, Jews accuse us of being accomplices when we saved them, the other way around they'd at least have some basis, also if Poland allied itself with Germany and Germany would win we would be in the victors camp and guess who's writing history after wars are done?:)

I see. If you had lived in those times, you would have happily participated in the extermination of Jews.
Admit you were thinking about it when you started this thread. This is your unfulfilled dream.....
You shouldn`t have adopted the nickname of Sokrates, but Sonderaktion Endlosung.
Rafal_1981
4 Mar 2009 #33
What if...there is no if. Past is past. We have to be more vigilant in the future.

And the future seems to be (from the German point of view) clear : Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Euro...heh




OP Sokrates 8 | 3,346
4 Mar 2009 #34
I see. If you had lived in those times, you would have happily participated in the extermination of Jews.

Not at all, i'd be either impassive or i'd work to save them, it mainly depends on the danger i'd put my family to, i would be willing to risk my life for Jews, i would not be willing to risk my loved ones.

I do however see that Jews slander us regardless so the loss of jewish population if it saved Poland would be acceptable, look at it this way, they were Polish therefore they should be ready to give their life for their country and if they werent ready then they were clearly not Polish and we owe them nothing.

This is your unfulfilled dream.....

I got a lot of unulfilled dreams and i'm pretty sure Jews arent in them so you can rest in peace Pawian i hold no grudge against your people:)

You shouldn`t have adopted the nickname of Sokrates, but Sonderaktion Endlosung.

I'd say i feel insulted but Poles ought to be used to jewish slander by now, all you can do is hurl insults and call us anti-semites.
pawian 181 | 17,079
4 Mar 2009 #35
Not at all, i'd be either impassive or i'd work to save them, it mainly depends on the danger i'd put my family to, i would be willing to risk my life for Jews,

How is it that I don`t believe you? Especially with this saving???? :):):)

I got a lot of unulfilled dreams and i'm pretty sure Jews arent in them so you can rest in peace Pawian i hold no grudge against your people:)

This is even more incredible. You think anybody will fall for that? :)

all you can do is hurl insults and call us anti-semites.

It is not an insult, but truth, Mr Sonderaktion. :):)
1jola 14 | 1,879
4 Mar 2009 #36
Read Mein Kampf CHAPTER XIV GERMANY'S POLICY IN EASTERN EUROPE. It is online in many languages. Written in 1924 it oulined colonization of lands to the East because the German people needed he space. Poles were to be worked to death at best.

Read about the Generalplan Ost.

Read Alfred Rosenberg, Der Mythus des 20. Jahrhunderts: Eine Wertung der seelischgeistigen Gestaltungskämpfe unserer Zeit, München: Hoheneichen, 1930 about eugenics. This is a real beauty. The Nazis had to revise their racial purity criteria several times. It would be comical if it hadn't resulted in millions of deaths of the sub-humans(sic). Jews, Slavs, Roma were termed untermensch.

To say it again, it was key to depopulate the land to the East for the menschto settle. Where do you put the untermensch?

I hope you don't take it that I'm patronizing you, I just think it's important to understand Hitler's plan for what it was. A very bad and evil plan. Oh, right, he sold it as a fight against bolshevism. Like he would know something about that.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
4 Mar 2009 #37
BB, I have suggestion for you. There is a great history forum dealing with WWII. It is

He...I'm a regular there! :)
But thanks...

I hope you don't take it that I'm patronizing you

Just read the links...
Nobody is denying that the Nazis had a race ideology too but it wasn't the one and only and not even the most important driving force for the war with Poland!

Avoid fringe websites and don't quote from Jewish websites about Polish history, they are both unreliable. I find your views like what I would find on Stormfront and you must admmitt that neo-Nazis are not exactly credible.

I should not use jewish websites and I'm nearly neo-nazi? You should come to a decision some time...

Sorry if some of those facts don't fit into your world view but I can tell you as a German that for most Germans the most pressing questions weren't the Jews and their destruction (Germany always only had a tiny minority of them contrary to Poland for example).

The same holds true for any "subhuman" ideas..."Mein Kampf" or not.
Read the plan for the invasion of Poland again!

If this pic staged why should they stage it if the eastern people are officially just "Subhumans"?
Or does this german SS soldier helps the wounded Russian just like that?
Ryszard - | 89
4 Mar 2009 #38
It was great opportunity to defeat Soviet Union and restore Russian monarchy. Of course territorially smaller, without Central Asia, Caucasus, Baltic states and perhaps even eastern Ukraine. However Hitler was too deluded to think rationally. If someone else would run Germany...

...then he wouldn't begin II WW first. I call it loop of madness :)

As for Polish-German alliance: it would be possible, if only Hitler refrained from any territorial claims. As we all know that wasn't the case, so the alliance wasn't possible - only kind of vassalizing Poland at best.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
4 Mar 2009 #39
...then he wouldn't begin II WW first. I call it loop of madness :)

Not necessary...the main problem still stands: The communist danger from stalinist Russia!
War was unavoidable sooner or later. Hitler decided to attack as he had the advantage...

This prevents making posts like this one, which only neo-Nazis believe. The rest of us understand this was staged. Historians agree on that.

Formulation and Execution of the Plan to Invade Poland

Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume One
United States Government Printing Office
Washington, 1946, pp. 390-400

Would that source be good enough for you?
HatefulBunch397 - | 658
5 Mar 2009 #40
Would that source be good enough for you?

A good question would be how many Americans read Mein Kampf right after it was published and gave it credibility?
Ryszard - | 89
5 Mar 2009 #41
Not necessary...the main problem still stands: The communist danger from stalinist Russia!

Danger indeed... but wait a moment. Germany didn't even have a border with Soviet Union. So where was the danger? And for who?

War was unavoidable sooner or later. Hitler decided to attack as he had the advantage...

Yes, and because Soviet Union was danger, Hitler decided to attack... Poland.
Right after signing a secret alliance pact with his greatest danger and foe. Flawless logic :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #42
He had his reasons....read the link and the quotes.
HatefulBunch397 - | 658
5 Mar 2009 #43
Danger indeed... but wait a moment. Germany didn't even have a border with Soviet Union. So where was the danger? And for who?

It didn't matter the Nazis were worried about Bolshevikism and saw that as the number one threat. Hitler said Germany wouldn't be able to survive Bolshevikism and would barely survive communism or something like that. Hitler was worried about the ideology consuming Germany. Funny, the Nazis were a lot like Bolsheviks, tho.
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #44
HITLER'S PLANS FOR EASTERN EUROPE

-For many centuries the urge to expand eastwards has been a part of German history. To start with, the main aim of this Drang Nach Osten was the extension of the German frontiers at the expense of the Slav territories lying in the East

-The vast areas lying further to the East were to become an enormous German sphere of influence reaching deep into the heart of Asia.
-The Slavic territories lying to the east of Germany were particularly enticing as the Nazis considered their primarily Slavic inhabitants to be subhuman (Untermensch). The Nazis rationalized that the Germans, being a super human (Übermenschlich) race, had a biological right to displace, eliminate and enslave inferiors

dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm
HatefulBunch397 - | 658
5 Mar 2009 #45
Ja, Hitler laid down his plans early in Mein Kampf, question was, who was reading and what were they thinking...and later planning?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #46
HITLER'S PLANS FOR EASTERN EUROPE

Why don't take it out of Hitler's mouth but rather trust some generalizations
and phrases?
(It was the slavic people who expanded steadily westwards deep into once germanic
territories...somehow you never mention that)


"The relation to Poland has become unbearable. My Polish policy hitherto was in contrast to the ideas of the people.
My propositions to Poland, the Danzig corridor, were disturbed by England's intervention. Poland changed her tune towards us.

They talked to us again in the language of Versailles. There was danger of losing prestige.

We are facing the alternative to strike or to be destroyed with certainty sooner or later."

instead of

"...mustkillpolishsubhumans...lebensraum...mustkillpolishsubhumans...l ebensraum...
mustkillpolishsubhumans...lebensraum...mustkillpolishsubhumans...leben sraum...etc."


Is it somewhat preferable for Poles to believe Germans woke up the morning and go to bed the evening only brooding about the subhumans in the East and how they could piss them off?

Do you need that belief somehow?
Curiously it's jewish and commie education too...

Were is the Nazi anti-polish propaganda?
HatefulBunch397 - | 658
5 Mar 2009 #47
He wrote about all of it in Mein Kampf while he was in jail.
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #48
I believe in facts and not in "what if.." version on the history.

Have you seen "Die Welle"? I have watched it recently. What do you think about it?
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #49
I believe in facts and not in "what if.." version on the history.

One should know the facts first...not only some convenient fragments!

"Die Welle" must hurt all those who don't believe it can happen everywhere.
But nothing new here actually. Group thinking is totally natural to human
behaviour...always was and always will...
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #50
"Die Welle" must hurt all those who don't believe it can happen everywhere.

But it happened again in Germany ;-]
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #51
But still, it was again in Germany ;-]

...and?
It happened and happens everywhere...but it needs a highly industrialized, highly developed country to wreak really havoc with it.
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #52
...and?

and? and this is it. that was the point, dude :-]
don't take it too personally. most of the Germans I used to know usually tried to convince me that the concept of 'nation' is an obsolete thing. So in that case you shouldn't be upset because some other Germans are nazis (or neo-nazis). You are the individual human being, right? ;-]
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,694
5 Mar 2009 #53
So in that case you shouldn't be upset because some other Germans are nazis (or neo-nazis). You are the individual human being, right? ;-]

???

Are you still talking about the topic in some way?
Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #54
???

sorry, maybe I asked too difficult question. don't bother with the answer. really it's not an irony. it's a rather complicated matter.

BTW:

It happened and happens everywhere...but it needs a highly industrialized, highly developed country to wreak really havoc with it.

Basically what you are saying is: we Eastern 'barbarians' ;-] are not industrialized enough to grew a 'decent' nationalismus? heh

Good night

Most of the nowadays Germans wants to be proud of their heritage. They want to be proud that they are a Germans (as a nation). Well, there is 'little' problem with that way of thinking cause they don't want to identify them with the pre-war (1933-45) Germans (and we all know why). On the other hand if they justify themselves in the way I had mentioned before (Individuality - they consider themselves as a independent human beings)) they can't feel the national pride anymore...Germans have found a simple solution to that problem - the bad interwar Germans were not the real Germans but nazis. Now they have to convince themseves (and the public) that this is true...and that's it. We have a good and proud Germans and a bad nazis...

Just an afterthought...
Ogorki - | 114
5 Mar 2009 #55
Have you been to the Allied cemetery in Krakow to put flowers on the graves of the British men who died fighting for Poland in Poland? The same men who you insisted didn't exist until you were provided with their names and exact burial locations.

JulietEcho was talking generally and you focused on specific actions of individuals. Yes Brits fought in Poland but they were the few that slipped through the Stalin Ass kissing net cast by the allies. The British Government did not make any official order to send in British troops to help Poles fend off the germans or the russians. They, one way or another found themselves fighting with the Poles - bravely -and gave their lives. The allies failed to stop the slaughter of 250,000 men women and children during the Warsaw uprising. 9000 children died in 60 days. Read below.

warsawuprising.com/paper/times_online.htm



Rafal_1981
5 Mar 2009 #56
Just an afterthought:

Most of the nowadays Germans wants to be proud of their heritage. They want to be proud of the fact that they are Germans. Well, there is a problem with that way of thinking cause they don't want to be identified with the pre-war Germans. On the other hand if they justify themselves as an individualistic human beings - they can't feel the national pride anymore...Germans have found a simple solution to that problem - the bad interwar Germans were not the real Germans but nazis. Now they have to convince themseves that it's true...

I know, it's not about Polish-German alliance but I think it's substantial for the understanding of the Polish-Germans relations.
Ogorki - | 114
5 Mar 2009 #57
Well...the new Poland had huge groups of minorities and the Poles treated them badly

Every country including Poland had it's social problems - the Brits expelled their Jews a long time ago - but neither murdered...

There was no need for Poland to merge/join forces with Germany because germany was already stealing Polands ideas anyway:)

By 1938 Poland had one of the most advanced (first all metal) fighter aircraft. They could not extract the power they wanted from the engine and so to keep up with the german competition, they bent the wings to strengthem them and allowed the plane to dive, which increased it's speed and made it more effective in catching german planes.

Later the stuker dive bomber appeared. Hmmmm...

...same when the Polish bomber was made in the early 30's. The Polish Bomber was launched and then the German bomber appeared afterwards. Hmmmmm...

Here is the Polish fighter & Polish Bomber and below them the German ripoff...







Czarnobog - | 33
5 Mar 2009 #58
This thread is sickening. Poland and Germany are antithetical nations. The main reason we are christian is so Germany wouldn't colonize our "heathen" pagan lands. We took baptism as a way to resist your attempts to civilize us.

Why don't you German "friends" start your own forum instead of colonizing this one? Or is that just what you do best?

Were is the Nazi anti-polish propaganda?

If we ignore 1000 years of incursions, invasions, and wars which always necessitate such propaganda... we can start with anti-Polish rhetoric in 18th c. Prussia. The German naturalist, ethnologist, travel writer, and journalist, Georg Forster, dismissed the idea that the Poles were a part of European culture, comparing them to primitive tribes and portraying Poland as an underdeveloped, uncivilized land awaiting the importation of Kultur from "truly civilized countries". Frederick the Great called us the the "Iroquois of Europe" and "a barbarous people sunk in ignorance and stupidity". Many German academics in the 18th – 20th century, wrote about the difference between Germany and Poland as a boundary between civilization and barbarism; high German Kultur, and "primitive Slavdom".

Many racist texts about Poland were published between the 18th and 20th century, and these were republished by Nazi Germany.

Don't forget also that during those wonderful years of the partition of Poland, Poles were subjected to routine discrimination. Otto von Bismarck described Poles as animals (wolves), that "one shoots if one can" and implemented several harsh laws aiming at their expulsion from traditionally Polish lands. The Polish language was banned from public, and ethnically Polish children tortured at schools, just for speaking Polish. Poles were also subjected to a wave of forceful evictions (Rugi Pruskie).

No anti-Polish propaganda? Please, you guys invented antipolonism.
Ogorki - | 114
5 Mar 2009 #59
BB, listing Polish crimes you are forgetting the cowardly attack on a German radio station near the German border city of Gleiwitz.

By this I presume you mean that Hitler ordered 7 german criminals to be shot and dressed as Polish soldiers in order to fake a Polish attack on the German radio station as an excuse to invade Poland????????

Blitzkreig was also rippedoff by the Germans. During WW1 Poland had also been forced to fight in the trenches during her occupation and suffered the slow advances of trench warfare. After the war Germany, France and England were exhausted but Poland and Russia were up fighting eachother again in 1920. The Polish forces learned lessons from the trenches and now wanted a new form of quick warfare to strike at the heart of the invading russian army, now close to Warsaw. The Poles were light and mobile and surrounded the russian forces very quickly, confusing them and suddenly defeating them. Charles de Gaulle was a young officer fighting with the Poles and was very impressed by this new method of fighting and wandered what it would be like motorised. He wrote a document on it . Later Hitler read this and put it to action. Hmmm...

I don't have the information here but I recall that in 1938 Hitler made an overture to Poland where he wanted access across the northern region (Gdansk, et al) and if given that an alliance would be possible. Some here might want to follow up on that.

Gdansk or "Danzig" is not a German city. It was taken by Germany for a while but it was returned. Here is a map of the area around 1000AD showing the original borders of Poland - pretty much as they are today. Pomerania (Pomorze) meaning by the sea in Polish was inhabited by slavic kashubians and Prussia in the east was inhabited by slavic pagans who worshiped the snake.

Just in case you didn't know.

Click image to enlarge



k98_man
5 Mar 2009 #60
Nazis aren't bad per se. What they did in many instances was rather horrible.*

I think nationalism is a good thing as long as people can keep it under control to themselves and in the work place. It's unfortunate that will not be able to happen, though.

*See some environmental and animal protection laws the Nazi party enacted. Most of them were the first of their kind and are still in practice today.


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