History of Europe and the Next Russian Grand Idea

Yes, the old historical Russian ideas are pretty much dead - I think we can also add Panslavism to your list. They are all in the trash bin of history, so what should be the next Russian Great Idea (RGI)?

Believe it or not but I actually gave it some thought.

This is something that Russia should consider as carefully as the cтратегические системы «Посейдон» и «Буревестник» that Veli likes to tell me about in his always interesting PMs.

Of course the retard who came up with the idea of promoting Russia as the mainstay of conservative, bourgeois values, morality and sexual purity should be sent to the worst Siberian penal colony there is to brood over his mental retardation, because not even absolute debils like Ryszard can seriously believe it.

Here's what I think Russia should promote as her next RGI:

1. Total rejection of Social Darwinism and its idea of competition, struggle and the survival of the fittest in the social life, but without strangling entrepreneurship, creativity and private property rights; difficult? sure - but if you manage to do it, you have bought Scandinavia, Ireland, France and PIGS (that's half of Europe already).

2. Also, instead of pretending to be conservative western bourgeois paradise (I mean, really... *galactic eyeroll*) Russia should accentuate positive Eastern values like: communality, rootedness in a multi-generational community, and ethic of work for common good instead of venal mercantile calculation. If you do that properly, then you have just bought overwhelming majority of former Soviet bloc countries. That's almost entire Europe already.

Here's something that already exists and can totally enchant most of post-communist bloc countries...

youtube.com/@TheUlengovs

... simple life, communal life, close to nature, without the constant struggle and greed. Promote this channel like crazy.

3. If you manage to connect points 1. and 2. (and it shouldn't be too hard to do, you must admit) to Christianity and joy of life, as well as to freedom (this might be a bit more tricky) then you have bought even Poland and the very core of the EU (Germany, Netherlands, Austria etc.).

Why am I giving such high quality advice to our enemy? Because if this enemy follows the advice, they will stop being an enemy and will turn into a desirable potential ally.

So, that's the RGI that most of Europe would be more than happy to follow. It would solve the "unsolvable" problems of low birth rates, social atomization and overwhelming lack of meaning of life in the decadent western societies. It would be the great blending of East and West, the great unification of two ostensibly incompatible systems.

Don't thank me. Always happy to help. :)

,,,,I dunno Torqi, that sounds so....so.....green!

Green is not that bad as far as colours are concerned.

Better than red or brown anyway. ;)

....sure....but I draw the line by (at? with?) Tofu....;)

Wielka w rosji to była tylko smuta...

Of course. That's where any sane man would draw the line.

@Alien

So, what do you think the next RGI should be?

Yet, I will thank you anyway. This was very interesting to read.

However, I have many issues with your attempt to turn Russia into a Scandinavian Christian Social Democracy...

Without further ado - my feedback:


My concern with this, is that it seems like a "growth destroying" idea. We'll have to stop tracking GDP, and use instead some Happiness Index like Bhutan.

Historically - non-Darwinian societies decay.

The wild jungle conditions in America, where the strong eat the weak, explains a lot of the difference in the dynamism of the two economies (vis a vis Europe).

Xi Jingping is trying to do it in China (rejecting the various ugly aspects of capitalism). Billionaires are regularly jailed, or admonished for living "too lavishly" or with concern only for themselves. The people cheer... but it doesn't do any wonders for the place's investment attractiveness.

So... this is my first reaction to this point. There's much nuance, of course, which I'm glazing over. AI and robotics could change much of this model which at the moment seems flawed.


Here you are channeling straight Dugin.

Question for Duginists - where did this place ever exist historically?

Among Russian "muzhiks" working for the "gospoda", while they gambled away the fruits of their labor in St. Petersburg salons?

Among Chinese rice paddy farmers hiding from the tax collector?

In an Israeli kibbutz?

On a Mennonite farm?

Show a good, working example from the past, and then we can discuss it. Because Dugin's imagined ideal - I fear - never actually existed in the way he seems to think about it.

Communalism has more often been a survival technique than a "value". Once enough capital is accumulated, and life becomes a little more interesting, these communes always tear themselves apart.

I may be wrong, and am prepared to debate this further:)


We are a multi-ethnic, multi-confessional country. We have many Muslims, and Buddhists, and Jews, and other folks.

Have to be careful in embracing Christianity too closely, lest it blow up in our face.

Putin and various Dugins are trying this, and playing it very carefully, but still not carefully enough for my tastes.

-//-

All in all, 2 out of your 3 points are straight Dugin eschatology concerning salvation and civilizational redemption. The difference is that Dugin thinks all these things will come about only after some apocalyptic battle, and you are instead trying to avoid a fight (a noble goal).

After critiquing your suggestion, I would like to respond to your criticism of the current product Russia is marketing to the world.

First things first - of course all of it is total bullsh*t - but it doesn't matter.

We need to first agree - "what is the goal?". It seems to me, that the goal of all Russian "Great Ideas" is - "how do we maximally grow Russian power, while also offering something in return".

Some smart Americans, like George Kennan, understood this at the beginning of the Cold War - when they were trying to understand "what does Russia want?". Kennan saw through the charade of Communism, and saw the Great Russian chauvinism beneath. So...

Pan-Slavism promised us leadership of a large part of humanity. To the Slavs it was marketed it to - protection from various Turks, autonomy from the Decadent West, and a healthy dosing of fascistic niceties.

Communism also spread our influence widely, with power dividends accruing back to Moscow with every government that fell into the fold. So this idea was very nice too, because it made us much more powerful (the main criteria - as I see it).

-//-

The current idea of exporting "machismo" and "conservative values" is therefore also not so retarded.

It is of course a total lie, but a good and useful lie.

Why?

Because there are buyers in the market for this sh*t, and so long as there are buyers - we should be peddling it to whomever is willing to buy it.

The West and the Far East have a crisis in gender relations. Men hate women, women hate men. No one's getting married, and no one's having babies. We're not doing it either, but we can use the moment to play on their insecurities and turn their gaze (fraudulently) towards the Kremlin.

The electoral leverage it provides us within those democracies, is worth all the shame and self-disgust evoked by pumping out nonsense.

Maybe 3 out of 10 people see through the charade of "Russian Conservatism", but 7 out of 10 do not - and to them we are heroes. These Russia lovers have votes, and they have money, and hopefully they have children. So... then they are ASSETS.

In the absence of a genuine RGI, this Frankenstein creation will have to do for the time being, because:

1) There is demand for it.

2) It works.

3) It pays dividends.

The difference is evident but still 8 out of 10 people in the developing world would rather choose Europe than the USA as their emigration destination. Perhaps we managed to save some of the old tribal, communal spirit, with our social-democrat safety nets for the weaker.


Christianity is the missing factor in China.

That's why we need the Christian element. Perhaps not even Orthodox or Catholic but Reformed - I'm thinking a Wesleyan/Calvinist mix - with Methodist emphasis on simple living ("Live simply, so that others may simply live", and all that) and holiness, mixed with Calvinist fixation on self-denial. We would need to investigate these guys...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_of_Wales

... they describe themselves as Calvinistic Methodist Church. Ostebsibly a contradiction in terms (as Wesleyans are free will Arminian folk and Calvinists are their theological opposite in this regard) but it looks like they found a way to overcome this obstacle. So, Russia would need to convert from Orthodoxy to this particular version of Arminan-Calvinistic Presbyterianism. A huge task, I know, but we are creating a huge project.


This is a valid reproach. Communalism indeed never really worked, even among the first Puritan settlers in America. People would need a very strong incentive to persist in this experiment but I think it's worth trying. Economists, theologians, psychologists and philosophers have to be employed full-time and in large numbers to present to us a working model.


One word: conversion. We cannot have all this nonsense. Only the Holy Bible - interpreted in a way that reinforces our model (see the Welsh church I mentioned above) will guide and light our way. Heretics, pagans and atheists will have to reconsider their positions.


Not necessarily. Fight may have to be necessary, I'm afraid.

The godless, the filthy-rich, and their lapdogs will not surrender their privilege so easily, no matter how persuasive we are in presenting our vision.

@Bobko

Your honesty in #8 proves to me that you are indeed a Russian and a Slav par excellence. It was a joy to read for me and for all lovers of the Truth.


I cannot deny a certain cold and obvious logic to this approach.


Terrifying if true.

As I said, Idiocracy turned out to be the most prophetic movie in the history of cinema.


:(

All right, but at least promise me that you will keep working on something better.

It's absolutely true.

Western conservatives want a "strong, traditional" Russia to admire.

They consume it as a fantasy of order and community.

They do not care if it's true - they want a symbol, not a reality.

-//-

Russia responds in kind, through:

1) RT's messaging to Western audiences

2) Alignment with far-right European parties (often helping them with a little bit of money, to get things off the ground)

3) Embracing the "defender of Christianity" narrative

4) Producing metric tons of brain rotting slop about "traditional family values" for Twitter and Instagram.

So you see... Russia doesn't actually have to live these values, but merely has to project them. The "ideology" is the packaging, and the product is geopolitical leverage. At least that's how I understand it, and how Mr. Surkov explained his approach several times.

-//-

Regarding my own idea... it would take me to long to flesh it out here.

I dunno....western conservatives are mainly catholic, or protestants....this alone makes it difficult for them to admire the russian orthodox tradition.

That is btw. the same reason why they rarely fall over themselves to follow all these USian new ways of christian thought.

Europe had its own experiences with religious civil wars, of the worst kind at that....and it formed Europe/the West even deep into the on the surface atheist societies, even today. It made us different!

Give us at least a general outline, a few pointers for further reflection.

I am not sure that is a natural fit with their love of heavy drinking, amateur ****, German cars and Italian handbags

History of Europe ...

...as seen from the graves of American soldiers...The photo down below shows where these brave men who died needlessly are:

On their behalf, this is me speaking to you:

Go die, morons...and never, ever ask the US for help to fix what you fvcked up.

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As far as your original post, Torgi, any post that doesn't mention Western warmongers and their lies, NATO, BlackRock, US MICC, Merkel, and other dicks and cvnts, is pure garbage and an attempt to deflect from the ultimate attempt to cut up Russia into pieces and exploit its resources.

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Now my daily reminder to give Russia haters their bone...You are right:

Kosovo referendum - very good

Crimea referendum - very bad.

• 
  USCemetery.jpg
  

I can do it better...See post 15 and multiply it by 100. Those would be the Russian graves as a reminder of what the West has brought to Russia...

Today, after two failed attempts, it's take 3...

@Torq

I don't know who to respond to! BB also asked an important question... I will get back to it soon - I promise BB.

-//-

I shouldn't have pretended to having a fully fleshed out Russian Great Idea sitting in my backpack, but what I could do is enumerate certain conditions I believe are necessary... before we can attempt to bamboozle the world again with some new Russian philosophy.

1) We should fix relations with the West and our own neighborhood, and abstain from wars for at least 20-30 years more. We are in desperate need of technology transfers, and access to capital - if we hope to be competitive in the second half of this century.

2) We need to invest more in our people, and less in metal. Russia's greatest wealth is our wonderful people, who I firmly believe are some of the smartest and most talented people in the world. No "Poseidon" or "Satan" can replace a world-changing idea that some boy in Siberia might be carrying, but cannot realize in Russia.

3) We need to move the country's administrative center away from Moscow, and towards the center of the country. Siberia and the East are dying - and Moscow is like a black hole that sucks all matter towards it. A new capital, perhaps in Novosibirsk, could recenter the country.

4) Children must become the center of all attention. We moan and complain about abortions and low birth rates, and at the same time we have 500K orphans living in the country that nobody seems to care about except for warm-hearted foreigners (for whom Putin made it illegal to adopt our children). This is a f*cking crime. A country that doesn't care about its weakest and most vulnerable is no country at all.

5) We need to liberalize politically. An active opposition and a free press - were important components of the 1990s, and set the stage for the surge in growth in the early 2000s. Without these two, the folks in power start believing too much of their own "hopium". It must be in the interests of the Kremlin to have some smart people that are able to criticize them. Sniffing your own ass all day is a path to nowhere.

@Bratwurst Boy

What I want to say to you, is that Europe is not impervious to those American exports.

Otherwise, why do you have so many Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostalists, Seventh Day Adventists, and all the flavors of Baptists present in big numbers in Europe?

All these are American imports.

Seems your experience of religious wars has not insulated you from these dangerous American innovations...

If these insidious cult ideologies can penetrate your continent, how is Orthodoxy different? Orthodoxy is spreading roots in America, and is one of the fastest growing denominations.

The path of these lost souls to Orthodoxy is often guided by messaging coming from Moscow.

....I came to a different conclusion, Bobko....they are not that many, and most importantly you would not gonna be voted in as Chancellor with a for example Jehova's Witness - Background, just saying.

I remember them knocking on East-Berlin doors after the "Wende", but I never thought they made a big inroad into the german society, not even after 30+ years of trying.

The old ways have proven to be the most sturdiest, even surviving more than 40 years of communist brainwashing! Extremely conservative in its purest meaning! :)

Russian Orthodoxy is just as strange to them....

I hope it is as you say.

A strong, conservative, traditional German East is welcome in Russia - even if we do not measure up to our own standards for others.

What irritates me about modern Russia, is all this energy that goes into playing this Kabuki theater for foreign audiences.

Self defeating hypocrisy. Pretending all is well, and reading lectures to others - even as we are completely lost ourselves.

The Kremlin - the beating heart of Russia - has to be open to admitting mistakes.

Yup....but the Reichstag too! We all made mistakes...

I don't know enough about Germany... but the Kremlin is unlike any other place. I don't think it's like the Reichstag...

The Kremlin.... is a powerful thing. It warps time and space around it. It causes chemical changes in your neurochemistry. It bends your heart. It's - for all intents and purposes - like some supermassive black hole or a magnetar - to put it in astronomic terms.

It's the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It sends hundreds of thousands to their death, and promises millions of others all earthly riches.

No Champs Elysee or White House or Downing Street has the Earthly power of the Kremlin.

Oh....really....well....😏...poor little Reichstag....

@Bratwurst Boy

This is a compliment to you Germans, and an indictment against us slavish Russians :)

We worship the Throne.

Don't! With their capital comes control...Grow organically .. on your own...With all that advanced tech, Americans have never been more mentally ill, lonely, desperate, and addicted...

The US has been transferring technology all over the place and lost its factories, R&D, engineering jobs. Now we have to import the Chinese and Indians...

Capital? Don't make me cry...The US used to a creditor nation...Now it's in the Thelma and Luise convertible speeding toward the fiscal cliff...

Ignore the above if you discovered a better way to work with the Western snakes...

This takes time.

Before the war we borrowed hundreds of billions from the West (while still keeping our debt load manageable at under 30% ratio to GDP).

This built electrical plants, high speed rail, and national highway network.

We need trillions more of Western money if we are to become truly strong.

Once we become fully strong - I'm "down" for all kinds of adventure. You want to declare war on the whole world - be my guest - so long as you first ensured we are standing firmly on our feet.

But this business of challenging the whole world, while we are rebuilding, seems insane to me.

I am so positively surprised at the amount of ideas for how to make Russia a better country.

You are all Russian patriots, and good sons of Russia - wherever the world has placed you currently.

Hm... once again you surprise me.

I expected something awfully Duginesque and neo-imperial in its general outline but instead of that I got a strikingly sane (and after all your claims that sanity is overrated!) programme of impressive moral depth that puts people and their well-being in the centre of your proposed national renewal. Peace, investment, decentralisation and human capital - I'm very impressed. I predicted a neo-imperial manifesto... and here you are surprising me with a variation of my Huge Slavic Switzerland idea. :)

So, here's your RGI in short: people over metal, openness over isolation, and responsibility over imperial hubris. Beautiful. Well done.

I am not quite sure, however, if putinists would like your idea as much as I do.


... and what have I been telling you all this time?

Having said that, if Russia doesn't wise up soon, we will be forced to go into war against you. For your own good.

Putinists are improvisers and men with low horizons.

They don't help the man, with their advice.

I feel I know what Putin wants - and that my plan would get him there sooner - if he just trusted us again.

By "us" - I mean the liberalizers. People who grew up in the shadow of Kudrin, Gref, Nabiullina. I might add Belousov as a potential ally.

In opposition to the "hard men", like Patrushev, Ivanov, Chemezov, etc.

The people that delivered Putin (in record time, and at record low cost) the machine that can fight Europe and America simultaneously - are us.

If he listened only to people he is ideologically close to, he wouldn't be able to do half the things he has done.

If he wants a strong and unstoppable Russia - he should listen to people like me.