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Polish attitudes towards ex-Soviet republics joining NATO


mafketis 24 | 9,143
3 May 2019 #31
If it weren`t for non-nationalist Poles, Poland wouldn`t be in the EU today

you mistake true patriotism with obsessed aka radical nationalism

no, you mistake normal levels of benign nationalism for weird radical nationalism...

if you want Poland to exist as an autonomous entity with its own language, culture and laws.... then you're a nationalist and deforming the language to make 'nationalism' bad serves no good purpose.
pawian 177 | 14,632
3 May 2019 #32
no, you mistake normal levels of benign nationalism for weird radical nationalism...

Oh come on, mild nationalism is simply patriotism to me, stop splitting hairs over language intricacies, it is really useless. You know what I mean so why are you diverting this conversation into linguistic dispute. Besides, when I address dolno and other weirdos of his sort, I add obsessed or maniacal - isn`t it enough?
mafketis 24 | 9,143
3 May 2019 #33
stop splitting hairs over language intricacies

patriotism is impossible without nationalism
pawian 177 | 14,632
3 May 2019 #34
Yes, but read my complete message above.

I suggest coming back to topic. :):) The discussion is about: Should Poland support Ukrainian aspirations to become the member of the Western world?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 May 2019 #35
patriotism is impossible without nationalism

Why?

Can't you be proud of your country without denigrating and fighting others?

Patriots can work together with other patriots to the best advantage of all, nationalists can't and won't....it's always "Us vs Them".
mafketis 24 | 9,143
3 May 2019 #36
Should Poland support Ukrainian aspirations to become the member of the Western world?

Of course. Part of that includes nationalist projects like increasing use of Ukrainian over Russian (one reason the Polish government has invested a good amount of money in promoting Ukrainian... and Belarusian although the results so far haven't been so great for the latter, which is a shame cause it's fun to listen to...)

Support modern Ukraine's western aspirations means letting go of some grudges against the Ukraine of decades or centuries ago which is more than some can bear...

I tend to think that their experience in Poland (and some other neighboring countries) can be of practical use to Ukrainian temporary employees - Czech, Slovakia and Poland are all examples of how it's possible to move forward past communism and communist ways of thinking and to modernize while still remaining unique - the UK and US and Germany are all too different in terms of language and culture so it's easier to disregard those examples but the western Slavic countries are close enough to provide possible models (imperfect, yes, but models still)

Can't you be proud of your country without denigrating and fighting others?

yes, you're a victim of brainwashing if you equate nationalism and war.

nationalism doesn't require war and doing away with nationalism doens't prevent war - they're separate concepts....
Crow 146 | 9,117
3 May 2019 #37
Should Poland support Ukrainian aspirations to become the member of the Western world?

Western world?

But Ukraine is West. Temporarily lack of money and wealth don`t deny that fact.

Let me reformulate that question for you > Should Poland encourage Ukrainian to become closer with Poland? Answer is positive.
pawian 177 | 14,632
3 May 2019 #38
Can't you be proud of your country without denigrating and fighting others?

No, don`t blame him. :) Maf prefers the old use of nationalism which indeed didn`t imply deningration, racism and xenophoby. Today, though, radical nationalists have turned the word into sth nasty and suspicious.

yes, you're a victim of brainwashing if you equate nationalism and war.

Guys, don`t let emotions carry us too far - it seems we have run into a purely linguistic problem with the meaning of the word nationalism.

Should Poland encourage Ukrainian to become closer with Poland?

But Ukrainians are already close with Poland. 70% Ukrainians say they like Poland.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 May 2019 #39
Nationalism has gotten a bad rep, because of history...but deservedly so.

That's why there is the alternative of patriotism. I can be proud of my country and want the best for it without hating another one and want that to suffer....
Crow 146 | 9,117
3 May 2019 #40
But Ukrainians are already close with Poland. 70% Ukrainians say they like Poland.

Closer. Always can be closer.

Nationalism has gotten a bad rep, because of history...but deservedly so.

If we look at historical facts we would see that it was western Europe (geographically western) that vulgarized and forced nationalism that led to extremes such are fascism and nazism. Plus, even communism and socialism were invented on the west of Europe.

Hardy little worms, those western Europeans, arn`t they.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
3 May 2019 #41
If it weren't for obsessed nationalists there would be no Poland. There is nothing wrong with nationalism

Exactly it doesn't make me left or right wing , I see it as the same as patriotism, kids of today have some other notion which to be honest I don't understand, being a patriot or read nationalist does not make you hate other countries or not wanting to be part of something bigger such as Europe, but rather retaining culture,laws , history defence, internal laws politics etc.

So correct me in kids speak of today are you saying

Nationalist = Nazi
Leberalist = Communist

Once you all tell me what you consider the terms to mean the simpler it would be for me to identify what I am, but looking at the comments no one can agree on what a nationalist is?? for me Polish nationalist = patriot.

Don'forget Poland cannot be put in the same frame a imperialist nations such as Britain,france russia, as poland has never had empire subjugated peoples or had them as slaves.

So I can understand why people in imperialist nations can be rightly ashamed of their past and the connection to the word nationalists within their own country can have bad historic overtones, and be offensive to the past oppressed that have settled in their country'
mafketis 24 | 9,143
3 May 2019 #42
kids of today have some other notion which to be honest I don't understand

There's a couple of things going on, there's a push to reorient people's political loyalty away from fellow citizens and towards governments and/or along class lines. It works differently in different countries and in different settings but the message is the same: People who care about ideas like citizenship or civic values are losers and/or dangerous.

If the EU doesn't bring working class Brits immediate benefits then that's because they're stupid losers and the winners shouldn't care about them.

If the French working class can't keep up with the unfair tax burdens that Macron is heaping on them then they're stupid losers and you shouldn't care about them.

If the Greeks never should have been allowed into the Eurozone then they're stupid losers and you shouldn't care about them.
It's all about neoliberalism and dissolving all attachments beyond the individual's desire to consume... (getting a bit advanced here)

Zygmunt Bauman has a lot on it in books like wasted lives... you might not like his communist past but he was one of the most important thinkers of the last 50 years. Phillip bobbit writes about some of the same issues...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 May 2019 #43
for me Polish nationalist = patriot.

I differ....you are a proud Pole without hating me and my country Germany...for me you are a patriot, like me. We both want whats best for our countries, and we would like to achieve that together....and have a beer afterwards.

But someone like Spike for example can't help hating me and my country and would love for Poland to fight Germany again, for him both countries are not equal, Poland is so much better and Germany just sucks, the Germans (all 80 million of them) suck, he is a bonafide nationalist. He would end all cooperation rather today than tomorrow.

There lies the difference, an important difference, it's just not the same!
mafketis 24 | 9,143
3 May 2019 #44
But someone like Spike

he's not a nationalist he's a totalitarian...
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
3 May 2019 #46
There lies the difference, an important difference, it's just not the same!

Right thanks for that, so haters of others can be called nationalists (sometimes)

So in short I only really dislike Russians, Soviets and their love of their horrible history.

As for other countries mainly I only issues with their politics.

Oh and the Ukrainians are stupid due to their twisted love of right wing Bandera and their opposite actions in support of Stalins purge of Poles from the east, then they moan when Russia reclaims the Crimea, they simply can't make their minds up what they want, east or west ?
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 May 2019 #47
Right thanks for that, so haters of others can be called nationalists (sometimes)

I think, since nationalism has been responsible for so much suffering in the last century yes, there needs to be a differentiation.

Otherwise you leave it to the lefties who want to do away with any pride in country and people full stop.
mafketis 24 | 9,143
3 May 2019 #48
I think, since nationalism has been responsible for so much suffering in the last century yes,

Which killed more people in the 20th century nationalism or communism (inherently anti-national)?
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
3 May 2019 #50
I think, since nationalism has been responsible for so much suffering in the last century

The penny is dropping now and it sounds like you are confirming my suspicions.

So to simplify.

I would be happy to call myself a Polish Nationalist/Patriot due to the fact that Poland has not cause the mass suffering in the last 100 years that you talk about.

On the other hand I would probably only call myself a British patriot due to the term "nationalist" in Britain being linked to its Imperialist/ colonialist past.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
3 May 2019 #51
Okay...a simple question:

Do you think a Poland led by nationalists like Spike would be good for Poland in the long run?
Crow 146 | 9,117
3 May 2019 #52
doesn't make me left or right wing , I see it as the same as patriotism, ..

I concur. Such a nice comment.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,085
3 May 2019 #53
Poland led by nationalists

If Spike has said what you quoted quite frankly I am appalled and would never stand for it, I am for co-operation and reciprocal friendly relations with all countries even Cough splutter!! the Russians and Ukrainians, in the case of the last two that takes some doing believe me.
OP Bobko 9 | 149
3 May 2019 #54
Unfortunately, Ukraine missed an important moment in history when Russia was weak

Damn, that sentence is straight from Putin's speechwriter, if you just substitute the word "Ukraine" for "Poland and the Baltics", and "missed" for "used". Props for calling it like it is.

Russian officials always reference informal agreements between Gorbachev and Bush Sr. regarding no further enlargement of NATO to the East following the fall of the Wall. The admittance of former Eastern Bloc countries is thus interpreted as the West exploiting Russia's temporary weakness.

This Russian line of thinking is usually dismissed out of hand by Washington and Brussels as nothing other than Moscow's paranoia. Thus, the official Western line for why NATO didn't just close shop following German reunification (like the Warsaw Pact did), is not because it is inherently an anti-Russian alliance, but because the organization's mandate had transformed with the times to be able to answer to new challenges. This is probably how... even though NATO did not take part in a single military operation throughout the entire duration of the Cold War, it has since 1991 intervened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Libya. New mandate. New realities.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,185
3 May 2019 #55
First, there is no NATO as there was no Warsaw Pact. It's the US and the USSR. The rest were and are props.
"NATO" is a greedy American old geezer with terminal cancer in search of a mission who refuses to die.
Secondly, who gave "NATO" that mandate? Itself?
Finally, other than the ruling gang, how did Americans benefit from "intervening" in those countries? They didn't. They just pay, die or leave legs and arms there. Brilliant.

What pisses me off really bad is being told that they died in those god-forsaken places "to defend my freedom".
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,696
3 May 2019 #56
Bad goy! Don't you know it's you and your offsprings duty to die in wars for Israel?

That **** is precisely why I left the military... Them paying my college off in exchange for 3 to 4 years of service just wasn't worth it to me.
pawian 177 | 14,632
3 May 2019 #57
Finally, other than the ruling gang, how did Americans benefit from "intervening" in those countries? They didn't.

Countries "liberated" by the USA usually adopt a pro American attitude. In result, they buy American technology and products, attract investment and generally become a source of profit. It is amazing you don`t understand such basic things. As a scientist with patents you should be interested in selling them in as many places as possible - you won`t in a hostile country. :):)
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,696
3 May 2019 #58
Countries "liberated" by the USA usually adopt a pro American attitude.

The people most certainly don't. They end up hating the us even more. But yes you are right that generally the country is then beholden to buying NATO hardware especially from us.

Then again, I do kind of wish I stayed bc I could've then worked for blackwater or made my own company and mowed down kebab with a 50 Cal at will.

Just look at how fun this looks: youtu.be/xm6hC2oW5P8

The Chinese so the same but are far more sly. Instead of conquering the place with guns and making everyone hate them they conquer the place with money build a few roads and hospitals and now all the turd worlders love them meanwhile they're shipping minerals worth exponentially more back home.
OP Bobko 9 | 149
3 May 2019 #59
Guys, let's not have the mod shut down our thread.

How do you feel about Ukraine's direction at present? Georgia? Moldova? As Poles, do you feel any commonality with these peoples - as Christians, as Europeans, as Democrats?

Where does Russia fit into this picture? Will we ever see a Europe stretching from Lisbon to Vladivostok, as Putin sometimes says? Is Russia destined to always play the role of the spoiler and the playground bully? Can it be brought into the fold through something like German Ost-Politik.

So many more questions. Let's not get derailed with discussions of Nationalism and interventions in the Middle East.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,696
3 May 2019 #60
Ukraine should've stayed with Russia. Now they'll be inundated with buttseks and Jewish imf loans they'll never be able to pay back.

Clown country elects a literal clown president. Imagine my surprise....


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