Are Sorbs Polish? Does anyone know about Sorbish enthnicity?

If you look at these two images you can see that the Sorbs have a very high concentration of I2a haplogroup in the areas associated with the Sorbs. I2a is ancient European and goes back way before Germany or Poland existed. It is associated with western and eastern Slavic peoples with unique subclades closely related from Eastern Europe.



Serb Migrations

They are not generally considered Germanic. Cultural assimilation is another matter.
I am not sure that it is appropriate to post on this here. I vaguely recall something to that effect. If so, my apologies.

I think you largely underestimate this percentage. Wasn't it Manfred Stolpe, the prime minister of Brandenburg in 1990-2002, who once said: "almost every one of us in Brandenburg had a Slavic granny"?

Did you know that the last man in Nieder Lausitz who could speak German only on a very very basic level died as late as in the years 1950s ?

That is why I once asked you: what have you been taught in German schools about the Slavic heritage in Eastern Germany?


Who were the Veneti and how they are related to Slavs is largely unknown. Crow's theories on that are more of a fantasy than reality. But it is true that Germanic tribes once lived on the Vistula river.

Oh sorry, Ziemowit. We moved to Nürnberg now. In my new school we aren't thought about west-Slavs in Germany. It would be just like people in Bialystok being taught about the German heritage in western-poland! But in Budyšin we learned much about slavs in Germany. You know Obrodrites and things like that. I think we were informed very well. But, as I already said: Absorption. Mecklenburg is proud of it's obrodite history, but they feel as germans. They absorbed the Slavic history into their selfunderstanding as germans. You know what I mean? They are proud of their peaceful coexistence (most of the time). But already 1390 there were no obrodites more. They are Germans being proud of the history of their region. And you shouldn't hear to Manfred Stolpe but to Stanislaw Tillich, the sorbish prime minister of Saxony. (As I said to crow: speaking german, sorbish heritage)

well,sorbs are not polish but western slavic..Poland was political project(think like great britain),not some unique genetic mutation.lol. it was confederation of many western slavic tribes,like visulans,silesians ect.

sorbians were not included in it cus were outside control of western slavic rulers(mieszko) who create Poland -.should they join to Polish state from the beginning,they would become 100% polish.

it was short time during boleslaw the brave rule when lusatia ,sorbia was absorbed into Poland but we lost this region..

Sorbs were last to abandon faith of the ancients. Like native Americans loyal to their tradition, Sorbs were loyal to native European (Proto-Slavic/Sarmatian) faith. i say that as a compliment. All other Slavs, including Serbs, southern brethren of the Sorbs, accepted to trust in a Semitic man Jesus who was crucified by the Romans and then later his fate was inspiration to Jews and to those same Romans to create new religion- Christianity. Then, Christianity diversed because of inter-Roman disputes and greed for money and Slavs (ie Sarmats) were poisoned with several forms of Christianity. Slavs (Sarmats) then started to kill each others in the name of Semitic man who was by Romans- mortal enemies of Slavs (ie Sarmats), declared to be God.

Fundamentally, people are who and what they, themselves, claim to be and not the labels that others wish to impose on them. (What happened due to the involuntary changes in Poland's borders after WWII) Modern Europe has learned to embrace this diversity which is very much in contrast to pre-WWII nationalists who claimed otherwise. Polish historian Henryk Zieliński wrote quite a bit about the Germanization of its Slavic peoples (in Polish) before the war. I haven't read him, but he eventually rejected communist historiography and was likely murdered as a result.

The major caveat with regard to communist era academia is that they tended to support, at least implicitly, Stalin's post war forced borders with regard to transitional peoples which never had the opportunity to decide anything for themselves. I would not be surprised to learn that communist historiography suggested that Germany's Western Slavs were either Polish, or close enough to be "rightfully" Polonized. The fact is that more likely, these transitional groups preferred living where they could maintain their own language and ethnicity as distinct from that which was larger but somehow similar, e.g., the Carpo-Rusyn language and culture has flourished in Poland, while it has largely disappeared in Ukraine. When such people were not able to resist, their distinct language and culture has disappeared. The Pomeranian language became extinct after the war, and despite spending time there, no one recognizes a separate Pomeranian people or culture.

No, it never did that. The Sorbian people themselves claimed an independent Sorbian state should emerge after the WWII, but Stalin rejected the idea. If you search the net, you'll find several maps showing the territory of that proposed state incorporating both Ober- and Nieder Lausitz (Upper and Lower Lusatia).


You obviously refer here to the case of the group of Kashubians known as Slovinians (Słowińcy) around and in the village of Kluki near Łeba. These were the only group of Kashubians (Pomeranians) to the west of the Polish-Prussian border of 1772 who survived germanization and still spoke Kashubian in 1945. And yes, they almost all emmigrated to West Germany after the war, such was the Polish culture different to them from the German one. But the rest of Kashubians who lived east of that 1772 border retained their regional culture and language to this very day despite being part of Prussia and then Deutches Reich between 1772 and 1918. The Kashubian language is taught at Kashubian schools these days. Of course, Kashubians are perfectly bilingual, but when I was in Kashubia a few years ago, on hearing waitresses in the restaurant of an open-air museum, I noticed that the pronunciation of those girls was subtelty different from the standard Polish one. At first I thought they might be young Ukrainians working in a restaurant, but when asked, they said they were ... Kashubians!

So the Pomeranian language and culture is well and alive in contemporary Poland.

No, I believe that I was referring to the Slovincian language which is now quite extinct. Together with Kashubian, it made up one of the two branches of the Pomeranian languages. Ethnically, Slovincians had become Protestants, unlike the Kashubians who remained Catholic. So, only half of the Pomeranian languages survived the war:



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovincian_language
It has been a few years since I read about this. I seem to remember reading that the language was further to the West near Szcecin, but that was about ten years ago and can't find anything presently on the Internet about that.


Considering that Poland's post war Western border is exactly that which the Russians had proposed at the start of WWI, (as noted by Norman Davies) it is not surprising that Stalin rejected something different. The point exploited for justification is that the "Recovered Territories" had been very Slavic before Germanization. Thus, Polonization was the rejection of Germanization.

Actually, come to think of it... a Sorbian state based on Upper+Lower Lusatia and adding in the territory between the Nysa and Odra could have been viable. Hard to say exactly where it should have been, but a line roughly following the Odra until reaching Głógow, then heading south and including Legnica, Lubin and Wałbrzych in "Sorbia" would have given them access to plenty of natural resoures.

Let us hope that would pressure of new Arabic settlers in Germany, result in rise of ethnic awareness among great number of today`s Germans of Sorbian origin and that would they seek to return to their real and only possible Slaveno-Sorbian heritage. Therefore, i hope that would from this chaos within prison that is EU, new and free Sorbian state emerge.

few words about two of greatest sons of Lusatia, father and son

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavle_Jurišić_Šturm
sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Павле_Јуришић_Штурм



General Pavle Jurisic Strum in uniform of Yugoslavian Royal Army




Captain Pavle Jurisic Strum in uniform of Yugoslavian Royal Army

Captain Pavle Jurisic Sturm, younger (son of General Sturm and of mother Eugenia of nobble Prussian origin) - sacrificed himself to buy time for Draza Mihajlovic- leader of Serbian Chetniks to escape from German ambush - captured by Germans he was tortured and Germans promissed to spare his life if he `admit` that is he German. Captain Pavle refused denying even German origin of his Prussian mother claiming that in his veins exits only Sorbian and Serbian blood which is same.

Sorbian Wedding in Lusatia - Zapust w Strjažowje

youtube.com/watch?v=x7ljzMZ9gGc

Serbski swěźeń w Chóśebuzu 2012

youtube.com/watch?v=--gjfZSsurU]

God blessed them all

All Slavs (ie Sarmats) with Lusatians! In Lusatia we should defend Poland, Serbia, Ceska, Russia ...

Serbske Piwo!

I don't think such a state had even worked. After WWII lower silesia (especially south of Oder/Odra river) was entirely german, due to settling politics of the Piast counties in 13 century and staying under german influence ever since till WWII. Also there Lusatia might not be as ethnic homogen than you seem to assume. We Sorbs would have been the minority in this country and after the collapse of SU the country would have joined Germany anyway, due to this overwhelming majority of germans.

Lusatia should be defended from whom/what, crow?

I have only noticed that I haven't had answered the thread's question directly.
No Sorbs are not Polish. Yeah, I have heard that about those ten or five Serbs in the present day Germany that are all that remains of what's left from the Slavic tribes which dwelt between the river Oder and Elbe and were consequently conquered by the eastern marches of the eastern Frankish empire (what later used to be ruled by the Römisch-deutscher Kaiser - a strange fish if there is one).


You are confusing things here, Gaelic wasn't really a proper single Scottish language,(spoken in all four corners of Scotland) only some areas were using it.

Indeed, it wouldn't and there hadn't been any historic reasons for such a bizzare shape as the one suggested by Delph.


This wouldn't have been so sure at all. Remember that not everyone in Europe was "amused" with the prospective re-unification of Germany in the result of the fall of the Berlin wall. British prime minister Margaret Thacher had been strongly against it to the very last moment. And there also were people in the DDR itself who advocated for Eastern Germany to remain a separate state without joining the Bundesrepublik Deustchland. So a Sorbian-Silesian State, if it existed, would have stood even more chance not to have been swallowed by the "Big Prosperous Germany".

A better idea would have been perhaps to create an independent Silesian State. Such an idea emerged in the First World War, but as far as I remember, either France or Britain was very much against it. Thus the German-speaking Silesians wouldn't have been deported to the left bank of the river Oder after the WWII. But they had been and many of them as a result settled in Lusatia, in some parts "watering down" considerably the existing Sorbian indigenous populations. I once viewed a program of the Sorbian TV (available on-line) in which one old man was explaing that he was the last living Sorbian man of that village of Upper Lusatia whereas shortly after the end of the WWII the entire village was inhabitated almost by Sorbian people with - I suppose - hardly anyone of them in the village ever wanting to speak German between themselves. Amazing, isn't it?

Btw, I've heard of one Sorbian family living in a small Polish town near Zgorzelec/Goerlitz who were allowed to stay on the Polish side of the border because they were native Slavic (not Polish, however) people. It is worth remembering the the proper historic border between Silesia and Lusatia isn't the river Nysa (Neisse), but the river Queis (Kwisa), so for example of the two villages of Nawojów on both sides of the river Kwisa today, one is Nawojów Śląski, the other is Nawojów Łużycki.

It would have been much better for them in the long run, I think. In hindsight, the rapid unification was a total economic disaster and much of Eastern Germany still hasn't recovered from it. But from what I've researched on the subject (I'm very interested in East Germany) - the problem was that they had no real choice but to enact Polish-style reforms. But unlike Poles, they would have simply left en masse to West Germany and rendered the new DDR unviable.

There were some people that wanted a Third Way between capitalism and communism, and it may have worked in East Germany had it been enacted properly. The conditions were right - but I'm not sure that the citizens of the DDR would accept a roughly 25% fall in living standards.


How much did you understand? I find it quite easy to understand once you get past the German accents.


Possibly not, if it was run like Czechoslovakia/Hungary and not like the DDR. It was the financial situation that caused the collapse of the DDR, not the political situation.

Of course Sorbs are equally German.1percent Slav?I doubt it,ask Angela Merkel,she is half Polish by paternal lineage.Germans actually promote Polish slavic respectability with prestigious company names as Kempinski Hotels and Swarovski crystals.And yes Sorbian villages are magical!

Are Sorbs Polish? No, quite the opposite. Poles are Sorbs. They were Sorbs and now they are Sorbs in their meta-ethicity. To understand this one must know how is Sarmatian = Sorb. Also, you can say Sorb, Surb, Serb, etc foreign forms of also foreign Sarmat form but `Serb` or even `Serbians` as foreign form is closes to original self given: Srbin, Serbyan, etc.

But not only Poles. Ancestors of all White Europeans called themselves in some form of Serbian name. Meaning, those who still call themselves `Serbs` still using once original self-given name that was used by all European Whites. Poles at least remembered and have their `Sarmatian` (Serbian) legends. Its also something.

No, they are not Polish. They are Serbs, same as Poles.

Just, to tell it that way, Lusatian Serbs are older populace then what is Polani populace, originating from that ancient ancestral line from Balkan on the Danube, when people after Ice age was finished in slow migration along the river nets reached Baltic and then moving left and right populated other areas of Europe and not only Europe.

Who are Lusatian Sorbs - Lužički Srbi - TURN ON ENGLISH SUBS WHEN WATCHING

>>>> youtube.com/watch?v=-PaNjj-6Oxs

Who avoid to see this will remain srupid till the end of his life.

See what grinding power of Poland.

I would argue that every indicator points in the opposite direction. East Germany has a tremendous rising in living standards, income and life expectancy. Was everything handled perfectly? Of course not, but that is to be expected by a project of that scale and which is unprecedented in history. If we are looking for losers, they might be found in e.g. the Ruhr Valley, whose cities were already in debt and had to take on even more debt to finance the transfer payments, not to mention all the Western money that could have been invested in the crumbling infrastructure of Western Germany.

East Germany will return to Slavic world from which they were cut off by Romes/Vaticans and Germanic schemes. Its just the matter of time when would people there decide to give up from western Europe and Germany and separate. Only in full return to Slavic culture they would save themselves.

I wonder how BB feels about that.

BB is sane, happily living in Berlin and don`t dream of 40 Alah`s virgins as Hitler dreamed of. BB pray to Christ and Svetovid Eastern Germany to declare independence and restart itself as Slavic.

Weeeell......I'm neither praying to Allah or Christ....let's leave it at that! :)

And because as of now slavic lands mean christian lands I would prefer to wait for the resurgence of Svetovid and folks before making any further decisions, thank you!

Personally, I am fine when East Germans admit to their ancient Slavic heritage as it may happen in various circles of society, but obviously not everywhere. The past history of those lands between the river Elbe and the river Oder is now entirely the responsibility of the German people living there who indeed have Slavic roots and genetically they are a mixture of ancient Slavs and German settlers. Theirs cultural and political identity, however, is entirely German (or East German for that matter) now.

In Mecklemburg-Pommern, for example, there exist fine reconstructions of ancient Slavic fortified settlements (which I have not visited yet, unfortunately). Nothing of the kind exist in Poland. Many German archeologists have been actively researching the Slavic past of East Germany and there are quite a number of informative books on that in German. On the more popular front, I can regularly see articles on the Slavic past in the "Berliner Zeitung" online edition, so there must be segments of readers who are interested. Also, there is an informative site in German on the Slavic past of the Ruegen island with plenty of info on the local dynasty of Wizlawiden run by a guy who now lives in Hamburg where I have found an interesting info that the last person who spoke the Slavic language there died in 1404.

That's sad...

Yes, sad. And why not?

One answer that and one came to the genesis of many Poland`s problems. Why Poland don`t have bigger influence within Slavic world, in Europe, world. Why number of Poles have complexes to be Poles. Why Poland don`t have capacity to attract Belarus, Luthuania, Czechs. Why Poland don`t have a sense to condemn Vatican`s genocide on Serbs. Why is Poland within EU and don`t have its own conglomerate around itself. Why is Poland a Poland and not a POLAND.

Now even woman are legally beaten, etc. Etc, etc, etc.

We abandon ancestors and then we test ourselves how low we can fall. At the end one finish with glorification of some foreigners and some foreign ancestors, annulling itself totally.

@Crow
Poles are just simply tired of governing Ruthinians, Lithuanians or any nation east of Poland. So Poles have given them the middle finger while thinking: Fine, don't want to do anything with us? Have your freedom, see how that works out! We are going our own way in our own country without all of you guys if you refuse to listen! We want to build, drink good tasty beverages and taste delicious food. For once we have common interest with the Czechs about that

Eh.

Poland goes in direction of Belgrade. Too many Serbs, too many Poles in Poland that country resits gravity of Belgrade.

Not Moscow, not Warsaw. Belgrade will show the way. And won`t be rule of Constantinople or Rome/Vatican or London. Belgrade knows what is best.

Corey Lewandowski knows why he leads Polonias investments in Serbs. He knows where is center of our civilization and where is wealth. Now things would come to normalcy again.

At the moment when was assassinated in France in Marseilles in 1934 by Nazis and Vatican, Yugoslavian King Alexander of Serbian Karadjordjevic dynasty, had Polish eagle as tattoo on his chest.



Yugoslavia had same anthem as Poland and ruling Serbian Karadjordjevic dynasty was raised to power in a deal between back then Poland`s emigres in France led by Prince Czartorisky (influenced by Mizckiewich) and Russia`s Romanov dynasty.

Slavic foes fear Serbians. They knows that Serbs bringing balance and they fear us because they fear to lose control over Slavs (ie Sarmatians, true natives of Europe).

Two Serbs, Tusk and Vucic



@Mr Grunwald

Where would Poland? Are you crazy?

Belgrade and that`s it.

Poles are actually Serbian.

They were Serbs, as all Slavs and Europeans. Some still are. First, it was that Balkan-Baltic line where Serbian name still live. It was backbone. Then time passed, people moved all-around, non-European influences, novelties in isolated communities, etc and, we have this what we have in Europe today.

Are you writing a script for a new sitcom? :):)