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Are Sorbs Polish? Does anyone know about Sorbish enthnicity?


Michał
16 Feb 2016 #1
Help! I'm sorbish and live in Budyšin in Lusatia. On the forums archive I read that sorbs were polish. I'm very confused. Does anyone know about sorbish enthnicity?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
16 Feb 2016 #2
Sure. Sorbs are not Poles or Czechs, although they're close to them genetically. If Poland had succeeded in keeping control of Lusatia for a longer time, probably the Sorbs would have been integrated into the Poles - but because they spent most of the time under German rule, their separate identity was assured.

Either way, don't worry, you're not Polish ;) Budyšin is a very nice place, though, I've been :)
OP Michał
16 Feb 2016 #3
Thanks for the quick answer :)
Ironside 50 | 11,477
16 Feb 2016 #4
On the forums archive I read that sorbs were polish

Are you Polish? What are you confused about?
Ironside 50 | 11,477
16 Feb 2016 #6
So what? Everyone entitled to their opinion. After from a certain point of view Sorbs are closer to Poles then Germans. According to some Silesian are German. Anyway isn't that a theoretical question as there are few and between Sorbs.
whocares
16 Feb 2016 #7
Sorbs are basically West Slavs.
From my understanding the numbers are falling and some are being Germanized (correct me if wrong).

If not for Germans youd probably be part of Poland today (like someone said uptop).

Very close relations with the Veleti and even Obotrites. Some call it all Wends but I disagree.
Many Eastern Germans have Slavic dna.
Crow 150 | 9,538
17 Feb 2016 #8
Sorbs?

`Sorb` is local Lusatian remain of original native ethnic name of Sarmatians. Same is with ethnic name of `Serb` from Central/South-Eastern Europe. These are reminders that once all Slavs were Sarmats/Sarmatians. This is what linguistic, archaeological and genetic science confirms. This is in accordance with data of old scholars.

So, Sorbs/Serbs are very old people, samorodni (self-born), givers of the Western world, natives, re-claimers.

One won`t mistake if say that are Poles in their meta-ethnicity Sarmatians. Still, one can`t be sure which local form of name of Sarmatians dominated in what is today`s Poland. It could be on root `Sorb`, `Serb`, `Srb`, `Surb`, etc versions recorded by historians. Anyway, ethnic name of Poles came to existence in further evolution of Sarmatian name in the region, in specific historical circumstances. That means that if one who is Sorb today, can also consider himself to be Polish at the same time, if feel so. No mistake here because Poles are essentially aware of their Sarmatian (ie Slavic) meta-ethnicity and don`t denied it.

Also, i have to say, Sorb shouldn`t become German because it is failure, abandoning of original (Sarmatian- ie Slavic) culture. Germans themselves are Sorbs, Sarmatians that were romanized and then germanized. In fact, great majority of western Europeans are Sarmatians- Sorbs/Serbs.

So, Sorb or Polish, whatever you choose is correct.
OP Michał
17 Feb 2016 #9
We are bot being germanized. Really i'm happy to live in Germany, cause of all the rights we got there. In Budyšin there are no more than 500 sorbs and you can do everything in sorbish language :). Same for the Danes and saterfrisians.(200 people only and they aren't germanized). But thanks for the many answers. If I understood you, the sorbs were relatives to the veneti, which moved into the Vistula region after the germanic tribes there (vandals, goths...) had left the region cause of the Migration period. The veneti eventually became the poles of today. We were pretty autonomous during the whole german superiority, so sorbs are near relatives to the poles. Ok thanks for all :)
Ziemowit 13 | 4,441
17 Feb 2016 #10
Sorbs are not Poles or Czechs, although they're close to them genetically.

Genetically and linguistically. Upper Sorbian is closer to Czech, Lower Sorbian is closer to Polish.

If Poland had succeeded in keeping control of Lusatia for a longer time, probably the Sorbs would have been integrated into the Poles

That's a typical "what would happen if ..." question. Maybe yes or maybe not. Just think of the Pomeranians (Kaszubi) who had long resisted the attempts by the rulers of Poland in the Middle Ages to include them into the Piast monarchy. Pomeranians of the East who eventually found themselves within Poland and continued there until 1772 have managed to ratain their Slavic dialect now officially recognized as the Kashubian language.

Parts of Upper Lusatia (known as "Milsko" in the Middle Ages ) and parts of Lower Lusatia were incorporated into Poland as a result of the treaty of Budyšin of 1018 between Bolesław Chrobry and Henry II and remained Polish until 1031. The first Sorbian anthem Hišće Serbstwo njezhubjene by Handrij Zejler was inspired by the Polish national anthem: Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła. Polish historian Wilhelm Bogusławski wrote the first book on the history of Sorbs which was published in Sankt Petersburg (Russia) in 1864 and later in 1884 re-published in the revised version in Budyšin as Historije serbskeho naroda.

In the course of history Lusatia also formed part of the Kingdom of Bohemia and at one time parts of it belonged to a Silesian duke of the Piast dynasty (which one I have forgotten - there were so many of them!)

Help! I'm sorbish and live in Budyšin in Lusatia

Do you speak Sorbian? Have you learned Sorbian at school? Have you heard of Domowina?
OP Michał
17 Feb 2016 #11
5.000 sorry :)

To be honest i can't speak sorbish very well but my parents are within the Bund Lausitzer Sorben( that's how it's called in german)

I'm feeling as a sorb cause of my ethnicity and not cause of my language.

Although I can write it
Pabrade
17 Feb 2016 #12
You do not know anything about the teutons

You have been germanized by the Krauts. It's sad to see a slavic fellow, who can't speak his natural language

Why are you using another username?
Ziemowit 13 | 4,441
17 Feb 2016 #13
It's sad to see a slavic fellow, who can't speak his natural language

I don't think so. Just look at all those Scottish people who have lost their natural language to English. They are still Scotts and many of them even want independence! Will they ever want to learn Gaelic properly? I doubt it - ask Delph if you don't believe me.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 Feb 2016 #14
Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I speak Scots (like many others) and I can codeswitch without thinking, but I've never thought that speaking English somehow made us 'less' of a nation. We have a comparable situation to Austria and no-one thinks of them of being anything other than Austrians, so it's the same with us.

Learning Gaelic - no real need. The Irish example shows that 12 years of compulsory education results in people not being able to speak the language anyway, so unless you deliver everything in Irish in school, there's no point in doing it.

Speaking of Lower Sorbian - I watched something online about it, and it was remarkably easy to understand.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,852
17 Feb 2016 #15
" Will they ever want to learn Gaelic properly? I doubt it - ask Delph if you don't believe me."

the Scots did not prioritise their language , unlike the Welsh , who keep their language alive at massive expense (and corruption) . A good analogy would be a patient on a life support machine.

Now let's think, which country has been more successful...hmmm..:)
Ziemowit 13 | 4,441
17 Feb 2016 #16
We have a comparable situation to Austria and no-one thinks of them of being anything other than Austrians, so it's the same with us.

I'd say you are in a much better situation than the Austrians. Have you seen films showing the enthusiasm with which the Austrians greeted Adolf Hitler when the Fuehrer (who was Austrian by his origin) of the One-Thousand Year Reich decided to adopt them and their trivial tiny state into Germany in 1938? They were all shouting proudly and loudly "We are all Adolf!" on the streets of Vienna. Only the Jews and some intellectuals "were not amused" with this overwhelming mood of pan-Germanic unity. Are you sure that if Bundeskanzlerin Merkel went crazy and decided to build the Fourth Reich which would last another thousand of years, the Austrians wouldn't readily join her in that task shouting happily "We are all Angela - ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer!"

That's why the Sorbs may not be in such a comfort situation as they are at present in the longer run. I doubt if they manage to retain their Sorbian identity if they ultimately lost their native language. Maybe they will. It's all up to them and what they really want. But language will play an important part in maintaining their identity. There used to be various period in history regarding this now tiny nation. Martin Luther, for example, called them die schlechste aller Nationen (the worst of all nations) in his work "Tischreden", while in 1667 Friedrich Wilhelm, Markgraf von Brandenburg, ordered to destroy all Sorbian printings and put an end to using the Sorbian language in church.
OP Michał
17 Feb 2016 #17
Mod's Comment: Why are you using another username?

What do you mean?

Or did you refer to Pabrade?

Referring to you
jon357 67 | 17,039
17 Feb 2016 #18
Will they ever want to learn Gaelic

That language was never spoken across the whole of modern Scotland - in fact it was only ever spoken by a minority. More people spoke Scots and Cymric.

With Sorbs, they're an interesting cultural group and very well integrated. They have language rights, schools and cultural associations. Some may well want to immerse themselves in everything that is Sorbian and others may want to assimilate completely. Most somewhere in between.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,852
17 Feb 2016 #19
" That language was never spoken across the whole of modern Scotland "

shhh Jon, let them have their little Braveheart fantasies
Crow 150 | 9,538
17 Feb 2016 #20
the sorbs were relatives to the veneti, which moved into the Vistula region after the germanic tribes there (vandals, goths...) had left the region cause of the Migration period.

you have pretty distorted view of Sorbian history. When Sorbs dominated what is today`s Germany, God didn`t even have plans for Germans. Not to mention that modern scientific theories seriously abandoning idea of massive migrations in deep European past, except those caused by glaciations (ice ages). See, there was few settlement and few re-settlement of Sorbs (Sarmatians- ie Slavs) in what is today`s Germany (actually all the way to Scotland) before Romans appeared on historical scene (some 2500 years ago) and formed later Roman province of Germania that re-named newly romanized Sarmats of the region into the Germanics and even later Germans. In other words, we speak of Sorbs as native population in what is now Germany, at least in last 5.000 years and, in fact, much deeper in past.

So, sleep well and peacefully. Sorbs are natives of what is now Germany. When Slavs (Sarmatians) become richer and when they start to write their own history, that fact would be recognized by entire world.
Lyzko 30 | 7,716
17 Feb 2016 #21
The Sorbs, also known as the Wends, suffered as well under the Nazis. Whilst maintaining Germanic birth, they were nonetheless considered Slavs by Hitler, much as with the Catalonians under Franco! The latter were purely Spanish by birth, but, like the Basques, were thought to be of variant ethnicity and who similarly spoke a different language from Spanish.
Crow 150 | 9,538
17 Feb 2016 #22
Whilst maintaining Germanic birth, they were nonetheless considered Slavs by Hitler, much as with the Catalonians under Franco!

by the Svetovid, this is the mockery of the thread

Sorbs didn`t maintain germanic birth. Sorbs are natives while germanics are freaks and malformed souls
Lyzko 30 | 7,716
17 Feb 2016 #23
Sorbs didn't maintain Germanic birth.

They most certainly did, Crow! As to the rest of your comments in the same sentence, kindly keep your not so disguised Germanophobia to yourself:-)

Sorbs, like Kashubians, were native-born Slavs whose birthplace was between Lusatia and the present-day border between Poland and Germany. Most were bilingual German speakers who however suffered under the Nazis.
Crow 150 | 9,538
18 Feb 2016 #24
Sorbs were subjugated by brute force by germanics
OP Michał
18 Feb 2016 #25
I think we Sorbs are something in the middle. We are recognizing ourself as Germans politically and Sorbs culturally. I am really happy that so many people seem to be interested in the sorbish people. Although many people said that the wendish suffered under German reign, I think Germans and Slavs don't have bad blood anymore. In the medieval ages the Slavs were brutally killed and tortured by the germans, after World War One the Slavs did the same to the germans. It makes me sad that some Slavs think of Germans as their natural enemies and the other way round. Germans enriched the culture of mostly Slavic lands and Slavs enriched the culture of (former) mostly German lands.

Everyone suffered under the nazis and they were bad, don't get me wrong! But eye for an eye p, tooth for an tooth never worked in history. The resettlement of the germans east of Odra river for example. Nazis have to be punished. But if we punish a whole people for crimes of a few we think the same as hitler did. And that's shocking
Crow 150 | 9,538
18 Feb 2016 #26
as i see, nobody here suggests punishment of germans or any kind of retribution. After all, they are our people just with deviated mind-set. In any case, in one historical moment, they killed many Sorbs and other Slavs in general. In other historical moment, Sorbs and Slavs didn`t kill enough of them and we are here where we are. We now learning to live in peace and prosper in mutual coexistence. Their problems are their and our. Our problems are only ours.

As for what you say that Sorbs feel themselves as Germans politically and culturally Sorbs, its nonsense. i think that you just joking here and eventually provoke. But never mind.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,441
18 Feb 2016 #27
It makes me sad that some Slavs think of Germans as their natural enemies and the other way round.

That has deep roots in history. And maybe this period if finally over. Notice that Germany was simply too big and too powerful at one time, so it wanted to grow even bigger and more powerful. And eventually so many Germans were seduced by the diabolic ideology of Adolf Hitler. When Germany was divided between smaller lands and principalities, it was a much more peaceful country than later on when it was re-united and shaped into one big state.

No doubt that Germany has undergone a major change after and as a result of the World War II.

I wonder if there have been any books published in Germany on the history of Polabian Slavs (those that had originally settled between the Oder and the Elbe) of which the Sorbs are the last remaining people. There have been published a few in Poland recently. I know there exist reconstructed ancient Slavic fortresses or towns (in Polish: gród, plural - grody) in Mecklemburg-Vorpommern Land.
TheOther 5 | 3,682
18 Feb 2016 #28
I wonder if there have been any books published in Germany on the history of Polabian Slavs

Maybe this?

bb-buch.de/index.php?cat=c208_Sorben-und-Wenden.html

"Das Wendentum in der Niederlausitz" by Ewald Müller seems to be interesting. It's available online:

archive.org/details/daswendentuminde00ml
Crow 150 | 9,538
18 Feb 2016 #29
If you want to know more

Catherine the Great, Russian Empress was originally Princess of Anhalt-Zerbst (Zerbst - read Serbst).
OP Michał
3 Mar 2016 #30
Crow: I think that you just joking here and eventually provoke

Crow, you think that I am joking just because I don't share your germanophobia? Now THAT'S nonsense. Although you seem to build your own history with your crude theories, here are some facts:

Germans are not Slavs at all? I do not know how you can actually believe this! You may have heard of the 'Ostsiedlung', an action in order to colonize the eastern Slavic lands by the germans. As if you might know, these colonization was followed by absorption of the Slavic culture into the german one not the other way round as you suggest. The Germans from Eastern germany, descendants to the west-German people have not more than maybe one percentage of Slavic blood within their veins!

You know around five houndred years ago a German married a slav, child married german, child married german that goes on and on. So your theory of the oppression of the Germans, who are all Slavs is pure fantasy! A Serb shouldn't say anything about Germany (especially with your expertise) if he doesn't live there (I AM a slav and do so)! Fun fact: Germanic tribes lived in the vistula region before the veneti, eventually becoming modern poles moved there. So should Germany reach till the vistula? ('Deutschland bis zur Weichsel!'?, luckily the German government doesn't legitimizes it's borders cause of things 1000 years ago, just like you, crow, seem to do).


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