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Slavs are descendants of Sarmatians?


Vlad1234 14 | 573
28 May 2019  #571
considered modern Lithuanian to be so close to Sanskrit

Only Lithuanian is close to Sanskrit? For Slavic speakers only!
youtube.com/watch?v=tnbWaIMwau8
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
28 May 2019  #572
I was only saying that such twaddle has long been disproven:-)
abc123
28 May 2019  #573
Hello again,

So this is what they think happened:

These people originally lived in North Mesopotamia/Caucuses, near Georgia and Armenia. They domesticated cattle there and then moved up to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. The Georgians call themselves Kartveli, and their land Sakartvelo. Sa means "land" in Georgian, so Sakartvelo literally translates to "land of Kartvelians". These were probably the Hurrians and Urartians. PIE shares features with both the Uralic languages of North Europe and the Kartvelian languages, so the Pontic steppe is the most likely place that it developed.

There is a lot of y-haplogroup R1b in the Caucuses, as well as R1a. These The movement of R1b and R1a people according to genetics corresponds to this theory. The R1b people moved mostly to Western Europe and the R1a people moved Eastwards to India and Iran.

Ok, I just want add one more thing.

In the IE languages, there is something called the Satem-Centum divide (centum pronounced kentum). Basically, in some cases, the K sound becomes the S sound, so the word "Sarmat" would be Karmat/Karwat in its original form. This is why the Sarmatians were most likely the Croats. Over time they began to say "Sarwat" instead of Karwat".

I wanted to write more about this whole PIE thing, but I forgot some of the things I wanted to say. Maybe I'll add them as I remember them.
Classic34
29 May 2019  #574
According to Czech and Polish legend, Lech and Czech were White Croat noblemen and they gave birth to Polish and Czech nations as well as south Croats.

White Croats must've been a large tribe by the late 5th century and together with Serbs and Caruthanes they were known as Slaveni.

and from this legend white Croats split off a family, namely of five brothers, Kloukas (Krakow) and Lobelos (Lublin) and Kosentzis (Kosice) and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga (River Bug), who came with their folk to Dalmatia.

The last name Bouga is also repeated in history with the mention of two Sarmatian kings Beuga and Babai who were kings of the Limigantes or their descendants, and were slain in 470 AD near Belgrade (Sigindinum). The Limigantes then retreated northward through Hungary. The names Boz, Beuga and Babai sound very Slavonic.

Read Cambridge Medieval history vol.1
Ziemowit 12 | 3,495
29 May 2019  #575
That's interesting, but can you indicate your source, namely a source which explicitly connects the names Lech and Czech to the name 'White Croat'?

white Croats split off a family, namely of five brothers, Kloukas (Krakow) and Lobelos (Lublin) and Kosentzis (Kosice) and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and sisters ...

That is even more interesting, but could you please give your source of this legend where those names of brothers and sisters are explicitly given and connects them to 'white Croat'?
Classic34
29 May 2019  #576
Not you again.

Google it yourself and start READING.

My encyclopaedia Britannica article on Czechoslovakia history for one,
Miloslaw 6 | 2,047
29 May 2019  #577
I have read that in Brittanica too.
It is online Ziem.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,495
29 May 2019  #578
Google it yourself and start READING.

yes, I may post a lot of rubbish concerning early medieval history here and then ask you to google sources yourself.

Your lies on early medieval history are pathetic because you cannot give any single source to back your silly assumpsions up.
abc123
29 May 2019  #579
I had not heard that legend. That's very interesting. What do you think of my theory? Do you think it holds any credence?
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
29 May 2019  #580
In a word, NO!
Miloslaw 6 | 2,047
29 May 2019  #581
What do you think of my theory?

Your theory is as valid or as invalid as many others.
We will probably never know the full truth.
But for me, it seems that most Indo Europeans came from The Steppes.
The Germanic tribes were first, followed by The Slavs and then The Magyars.
abc123
29 May 2019  #582
@Miloslaw

Yes, I'm not denying that they came from the Steppes, I'm just saying they called themselves "Khuruati". They must have had some sort of name for themselves, and since "Khuru" or "Khuruati" is found everywhere, I'm assuming that's what their name was.
Crow 137 | 7,595
30 May 2019  #583
I will only remind that all sorts of forms of `Croati` represent foreign (in this case Roman) given form that is regularly imposed on `Serbs` (Native: Srbi). Later in hostory, when wanted to specify Catholic Serbs, Lains again used word `Croati`. That is the reason why modern day Croatia have two names - `Hrvatska` and `Croatia`. Modern linguistic explanation for `Hrvat` is that originate from root `Srbin`, where S > H and B > V, what is usual linguistic transition. So, Hrvat is also foreign given form, softened version of Srbin.

So, when Turks arrived and conflicted with Serbs, word used by any Turkish soldier that fought against Serbs was `Kauri`. To Turks, Serbs were Kauri/Cauri.

Spot this also > Sauromati (foreign version of Serb name) > Cauromati (further foreign deviation of Serb name) > Croati.

And don`t even try to ask when was the oldest mention of Sarmatian (and original `Serb` form) name. It was in time immemorial. Entire Europe, Near East, Anatolia, North Africa, Eurasia, parts of Asia. Names of places, rivers, lakes, etc. By that and by fact that when mentioned, name of Hrvat or Krovat or any other form of `hrv`, sometimes (!) follow Serbian name, it is only proof of foreign deviation of Serb name.
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
30 May 2019  #584
Linguistics is full of false, if valid-sounding, theories such as the Lithuanian-Sanskrit "connection". Many, though perhaps not most, certainly not ALL, often bear little resemblance to the truth:-)
gumishu 11 | 5,012
30 May 2019  #585
Lithuanian-Sanskrit connection is a fact not a theory - simple as that Indoeuropeans originated from the Pontic Steppe - and they migrated in all directions from there after domesticating of the horse

"Khuruati". They must have had some sort of name for themselves, and since "Khuru" or "Khuruati" is found everywhere,

it's not so idiotic as it may sound at first - Alans migrated in many directions and noone clearly knows where they originated - they are know from Eurasiatic Steppe from France, from Caucasus, from Tunisia and even from China -- all descendants of the same tribe
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
30 May 2019  #586
@gumishu,

Nobody here's certainly denying extensive transmigration of peoples. It's simply that to suggest, as had been suggested by certain scholars, that Lithuanian farmers

of the present day can possibly understand intelligibly prayers being chanted in Sanskrit, is preposterous:-)
gumishu 11 | 5,012
30 May 2019  #587
oh sorry - I have no idea to be honest - but I honestly doubt present day Lithuanians understand much of Sanskrit
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
30 May 2019  #588
Indeed.

According to several relatively reliable-looking Wiki links I just pulled, there IS in fact a degree of semantic similarity between Modern Lithuanian and
Sanskrit, however not to the degree once claimed long ago that Lithuanian peasants as Baltic speakers could understand fluently a sermon or whatnot
given in Sanskrit!
abc123
30 May 2019  #589
The name Khuruati is found in too many places to be a coincidence, as are the chessboard and the interlace. Here are some names of tribes/peoples that have names similar to Khuruati (keep in mind these people are believed to have arrived in Central Europe in 2500 BC so there was plenty of time for the names to get corrupted):

- Carpi/Harpi or Carpati/Harpati (they lived around Romania) - the Carpathian mountains are called Harvatha fjollum in the Norse legend Herverar saga
- Helvetii - a Celtic tribe
- Arvanuti/Arnauti/Arnavuti - Albanians
- Harauvati in Afghanistan
- Slavic Heneti/Veneti- I think the first sound was between H and V so they sometimes got called Heneti and sometimes Veneti
- Hellada/Herratta for Greeks, where there were also Corinthians
- Sarmati - the "s" sound was originally "kh" sound, not the opposite
- Kuruava in India
- Tocharians - also known as Ttahvara or Tukhara - they lived in a kingdom called Kroran - they were Indo-European speakers who lived around the Tarim Bason in Asia

I'm thinking even Germania was originally Kharvania/Kharvatia.

There might be more too but I haven't found them yet. If it was just the name, it might be a coincidence, but it's the name, the red-and-white chessboard, and that everywhere each of these people lived, and Indo-European language was spoken.

I tried to find the explanation for satem vs. centum languages and this is what I found on Reddit:

Some languages (Latin, Greek, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Celtic...) merged the palatovelars with the plain velars, and the labiovelars were kept mostly intact. Those languages were called centum. The word is by itself an example: Proto-Indo-European *ḱm̥tóm became "centum" /ken.tum/ in Latin, and the palatovelar /ḱ/ became /k/.

On the other hand, some other languages (Sanskrit, Avestan, Proto-Slavic, Persian...) merged the labiovelars with the plain velars. And then the palatovelars became something else, sibilants (S-like sounds). Those were the satem languages - and again, the name is meaningful: PIE *ḱm̥tóm > Avestan /sa.təm/, with the palatovelar /ḱ/ becoming /s/.
Crow 137 | 7,595
31 May 2019  #590
The name Khuruati

Whatever man. Just start from written fact in official Vatican`t documents and in numerous other documents where is for centuries name Croatia used to designate Serbs. To designate Serbs that are obliged to Rome and particularly Catholic Serbs. Start from this fact and then develop your theories.

In the book of Nikola Tesla, `My inventions`, among else, Tesla published letter of his father to his friend in other town, where is nicely seen how is used name Hrvat/Croat to designate Catholic Serbs. Document is especially valuable because isn`t published as political work but simple was mentioned for part of communication of Tesla`s father to show Tesla`s life.

Or take town of Dubrovnik in what is now Croatia. It was absolutely Serbian town of Catholic Serbs. It is 100% fact documented in Vatican`t library, in Serbian and others medieval and later documents, etc, etc. You look today and you see Dubrovnik`s people are Croats now. It will maybe change again but you can see current state of things. But anyway, you have that mechanism in work where SRB transitioning into HRV/CRO.

From such a things you should start and then seek for linguistic laws (and political machinations) that led to deformation of SRB into HRV. You may have all possible ideas, sure, but if you ignore written historical data, you simple aren`t serious.

Linguistics is full of false, if valid-sounding, theories

Still, you have proven laws of linguistic science. You have that very well known fact of transition of B to V. Take for example name of Lusatian Serbs as they are called by Germans. Its WEND. Its actually B-END from SYARBIN as Lusatians call themselves > SYA-R-BIN > SYA - (R is removed) - WIN > remain only WIND in accordance how Germans can more easily pronounce.

Actually, when you look at this transition, you easily see how even name SLOVEN can be result of that transition, especially if you, to this law B > V add written Latin/Vatican`s documents where they says how some form of Serbian name was original name to all Slavs. Many years later linguistics definitely accepted Sarmatian name to be deviation of some form of Serbian name.
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
31 May 2019  #591
Aha, linguistic "laws", for example "Das Vernersche Gesetz", after the Danish linguist, are quite another thing from mere theory, based usually on conjecture or projection:-)
abc123
31 May 2019  #592
@Crow

I don't know totally about the "s" and "h" change. I have read in some places that the Iranians changed "s" to "h" often, for example the Indian "Sarasvati" is the Iranian "Harahvati", so the "s" may be older. From what I read about the satem-centum thing, it seems that one group took this weird "kh" sound and make it "k", and one group took it and made it "s".

@Lyzko

I don't know what you're trying to say.
pawian 159 | 9,561
31 May 2019  #593
When you stay longer here, you will know that Lyzko, as usual, is trying to accomplish an adequate convergence between the linguistic purity and semantic interference of compatible anomaly effects. Those anomalies correspond to more tolerant dialectal variations but on the whole are semantically heavier and more idiosyncratic than any linguistic truths ever concocted by experts.

Simply speaking, he is offering a broader view to teach people sth new. I hope you understand it and accept it as Lyzko`s natural style.
abc123
31 May 2019  #594
@pawian

People use big words because it makes what they're trying to say more specific. For example, saying "Bacteria are ubiquitous in the environment" is more specific than saying "Bacteria are everywhere, all over the place, pervasive, global". The word "ubiquitous" means all of these other things, but you only have to use one word. When you use big words that don't have specific meanings, it makes things sound more complicated, instead of more simple. I'm extremely confused by what you said.

I have lived in an English speaking country since I was young, so it is my native language. This is why I know how to use it properly (most of the time) lol
Crow 137 | 7,595
1 Jun 2019  #595
In any case, any talk of Slavic (ie Sarmatian) past, will for long stay colored with politics of Anglos, Francos and Germanics- those who seek to control Eastern Europe, Europe and world. And Slavs (ie Sarmatians) were what native Indians were in Americas. So, policy with all natives was/is the same. Reduce them, assimilate them, exterminate them. Then, when they are essentially destroyed and fatally weakened, start to promote their culture and speak of solidarity with them.

It was so in Uni-Polar world. See, Multi-Polar world changed this approach to natives in the world and with that to Slavs (ie Sarmatians), too.
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
1 Jun 2019  #596
abc, my meaning was crystal clear, in English or Polish.
I don't chew my cabbage twice!
pawian 159 | 9,561
1 Jun 2019  #597
When you use big words that don't have specific meanings, it makes things sound more complicated, instead of more simple.

Complicated is good for you because it forces you to think harder than usual (normally people use about 15% of their brain powers) which in turn contributes to the development on new neuron connections in your brain. This will help you avoid or delay Alzheimer`s disease one day.

I don't chew my cabbage twice!

That`s bad. The fiber content in cabbage help to prevent constipation and maintain a healthy digestive tract only on condition it is chewed thoroughly!
abc123
2 Jun 2019  #598
@Crow

I don't think that will happen to the Slavs. It seems like the English were only able to successfully colonize North America and Australia because they were sparsely populated. South America was colonized by the Spanish, but many South Americans don't look European. South America was a lot more densely populated so it was much more difficult to take it over. The Slavs are too numerous to be taken over, plus we have good weapons!

I looked up the Polish legend and this is what I found:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech,_and_Rus

It says the three are descended from a Pannonian prince. Some capitals of Pannonia were: Carnuntum, Sirmium, and Savaria/Sabaria. Here's a link to the Pannonia page:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia

Here is a really interesting excerpt from the page:

Trajan divided the province into Pannonia Superior (western part with the capital Carnuntum), and Pannonia Inferior (eastern part with the capitals in Aquincum and Sirmium[13]). According to Ptolemy, these divisions were separated by a line drawn from Arrabona in the north to Servitium in the south

Basically, I think the Serbs and Croats were in the Balkans long before the 6th century.

If I'm wrong about some of the things I'm saying, please correct me. I won't feel bad if you do. Crow, if you want to say something, can you please also say where you're getting your information from, and can you try to be as clear as possible about what you're saying.
Crow 137 | 7,595
2 Jun 2019  #599
I don't think that will happen to the Slavs. It seems like the English

Well, English are weak. True. But, never underestimate evil and stupid mind. My people use to say - ``damage inflicted by the stupid, can`t be corrected by thousand wise man``
Lyzko 22 | 6,544
2 Jun 2019  #600
@Nice one there, paw:-)

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