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Slavs are descendants of Sarmatians?



jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 May 2015  #61

So why post links to trash like that?

More important to look at 'Sarmatians' and other groups in terms of their cultural heritage rather than DNA which doesn't determine how people behave or what they achieve.


Theuton    
20 May 2015  #62

If you're strongly of that opinion thus you shouldn't type to thread: "Slavs are descendants of Sarmatians?", maybe make a new thread about link between cultures of Slavs and Sarmatians. I can give you a small inspiration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

Yamna culture gave to born both: Slavs and Scythians.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
20 May 2015  #63

What makes you think that being a descendent is only about DNA. By the time of the Sarmatian Movement, any biological link was too far back to be relevant to anything. The Polish population, by the way, are much more diverse, with heritage from many more sources.
Vlad1234 8 | 201    
20 May 2015  #64

It is often claimed Scythians and Sarmatians spoke ''Iranian" languages. So, Slavic people would have be a result of a profound transformation if they are their descendants...
gregy741 3 | 981    
20 May 2015  #65

maybe Scythians were iranians,but were absorbed by slavs,who they conquered..i remember i read some story about scythian royal warrior extracted in russia.they checked his dna,and it appear ,he was slavic.

also..they are hypotesis,that slavs themselves are of iranian descend,..migrated north from persia and mixed with balts ect.darius called slavic land "little persia"

slavic early history is very unknown..very little written records
Vlad1234 8 | 201    
20 May 2015  #66

The Sarmatians spoke Scythian language. The numerous Iranian personal names in the Greek inscriptions from the Black Sea Coast indicate that the Sarmatians spoke a North-Eastern Iranian dialect ancestral to Alanian-Ossetian (see Scytho-Sarmatian).

The Scythian languages (/ˈsɪθiən/ or /ˈsɪðiən/) are a group of Eastern Iranian languages of the classical and late antiquity (Middle Iranian) period, spoken in a vast region of Eurasia named Scythia. Except for modern Ossetian, which descends from the Alanian variety, these languages are all considered to be extinct. Modern Eastern Iranian languages such as Wakhi, however, are related to the eastern Scytho-Khotanese dialects attested from the kingdoms of Khotan and Tumshuq in the ancient Tarim Basin, in present-day southern Xinjiang, China.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages

they are hypotesis,that slavs themselves are of iranian descend,..migrated north from persia and mixed with balts ect.darius called slavic land "little persia"

Even if it have happened it happened more then 4 thousands of years ago. Maybe 7 thousands. Obviously that early Slavs were Nordic mostly. Blond and blue-eyed. Here is a map that shows Indo-European migrations in the last 4.5 thousands of years. If to believe in this hypothesis Southern Russia and Eastern Ukraine have been homeland for almost all modern Europeans. (With exception of Finns and Hungarians).

Kurgan

Scheme of Indo-European migrations from c. 4000 to 1000 BCE according to the Kurgan hypothesis.
* The magenta area corresponds to the assumed Urheimat (Samara culture, Sredny Stog culture) and the subsequent Yamna culture.
* The red area corresponds to the area which may have been settled by Indo-European-speaking peoples up to c. 2500 BCE.
* The orange area to 1000 BCE.
thescienceforum.com/anthropology-archaeology-palaeontology/28249-english-russian-language-similarities.html
Theuton    
21 May 2015  #67

Almost perfect, merely that the map doesn't describe a movement of all of proto indo-european speakers, so R1b (Kelts) is there missed. It's only a half of the puzzles, that's just about R1a. Old Kelts spoke in similar language, however west-european population have got more from R1b language.
Suevi/Venethi    
21 May 2015  #68

I'd say that Slavs (German: Slawen) and Wends (German: Wenden/Winden) are mostly descendants of ancient Suevi and Venedi. Written sources and recent genetic studies (ancient DNA continuity) suggest so.

they occupy the greater part of Germaniae, and have hitherto been divided into separate tribes with names of their own, though they are called by the general designation of "Suevi"

Tacitus (98 AD)

Peutinger Map (4th century AD)
images69.fotosik.pl/843/1706eddc24266dbc.jpg

off-shoots of one stock [Venethi] have now three names, that is Venethi, Antae and Sclaveni

Sclaveni and the Antae (...) hold a great amount of land; for they alone inhabit the greatest part of the northern bank of the Ister

Procopius (540s AD - 551 AD)

Germania lies beyond lower Scythia. It starts at the Danube and is enclosed by the river Rhine and the Ocean. In the north and in the west the Ocean is its boundary, in the east the Danube, in the south the river Rhine. The country is rich in men and has a numerous and fierce (immanis) population (...) Germania, where the Suevi inhabit the greater part.

Isidore of Seville (615 - 630s)
images70.fotosik.pl/903/83c5c99eb4cd03fc.png

to the Veneti who are also called Slavs [ut Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicvntvr]

Jonas Bobiensis (639 - 643)

Slavs that are of/are also known as the Veneti [Sclavos coinomento Winedos]

Fredegar (640s)

In the early 800s the Limes Saxoniae have been established.

Prussian (probably 36-38) and Slavic (1-35; 39-55) tribes according to Bavarian Geographer (ca.844)
images67.fotosik.pl/901/bd37673fd85e9618.png
images70.fotosik.pl/900/87712e445ef35457.png

Sclavania is the largest (amplissima) province of Germaniae inhabited by the Winulis who at one time were called Wandali.

Adam of Bremen (1073 - 1076)

Wulfstan said that he went from Hedeby to Truso in seven days and nights (...) Weonodland was all the way on our right, as far as Wisle-mouth. [Wulfstan sæde þæt he gefore of Hæðum (...) Weonodland wæs us ealne weg on steorbord oð Wislemuðan]

Wulfstan's voyage (ca.880)
images70.fotosik.pl/604/53723239fef9be5b.jpg
Theuton    
21 May 2015  #69

The problem with Suevi is that West Slavic countries consist of more R1a variations and eg Russian even more. Your theory can be right, but merely from a part.

I think that you are right, because R1a had invaded Germany and Skandinavia cca 5000 years ago and it was very simple for R1a as well as later for R1b (Kelts), because they'd horses as first (nobody else in Europe saw it before, they didn't know how to fight with riders). But... this dna is matched only in west Slavic, Baltic and Germanic countries. It's not all of R1a dna between Slavs.
Suevi/Venethi    
21 May 2015  #70

The country next the whole [eastern] bank is inhabited by the Suevi, who (...) are superior both in power and number to the others, whom they drove out, and who have now taken refuge on this side the Rhine.

Strabo

So-called West Slavic marker (R1a-M458)
cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

All clades of R1a (note that European clades of R1a, i.e. Z280 and M458 are not ancestral to Asian clades and vice versa)

cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

yfull.com/tree/R1a/
Theuton    
21 May 2015  #71

OK, I give up about west Slavs.
Suevi/Venethi    
21 May 2015  #72

In the early Middle Ages R1a-M458 people very likely inhabited much larger area, check genetic studies on Sorbs (genetically very similar to Poles, high % of M458, especially L260).
Ziemowit 8 | 2,637    
21 May 2015  #73

Can you give a brief summary of genetic studies on Sorbs bearing in mind that there are two groups of them: one of Niederlausitz (Brandenburg) and one of Oberlausitz (Saxony)?
Suevi/Venethi    
21 May 2015  #74

Abstract (Genetic variation in the Sorbs of eastern Germany in the context of broader European genetic diversity, 2011)

To examine Sorbian genetic diversity within the context of other European populations, we analyzed genotype data for over 30 000 autosomal single-nucleotide polymorphisms from over 200 Sorbs individuals. We compare the Sorbs with other European individuals, including samples from population isolates. Despite their geographical proximity to German speakers, the Sorbs showed greatest genetic similarity to Polish and Czech individuals, consistent with the linguistic proximity of Sorbian to other West Slavic languages.

Since then, subclades M458 and Z280 were analysed by Underhill, Sorbs have 65% of R1a (M458 - 57%, other subclades - 43%). These results show considerable similarity to Polish DNA.
Suevi/Venethi    
21 May 2015  #75

Abraham ben Jacob (ca.965)

The country of the Saqaliba [Slavs] extends from the eastern Mediterranean to the north Atlantic. The tribes of the north dominate them and now live among them. They are of many different kinds. They were once united under a king named Makha, who was from a group of them called Walitaba [Veleti/Wends]. This group was of high status among them, but then their languages diverged, unity was broken and the people divided into factions, each of them ruled by their own king. At the present time they have four kings: the king of the Bulqars; Boreslav, king of Prague and Bohemia and Cracow; Mieszko, king of the north; and Nakon, who rules the farthest west.

Edit.....100 words or less
Suevi/Venethi    
21 May 2015  #76

With every year, we have more and more documents properly translated into English. Also, in the last years genetic research was significantly improved (subclades analysis), this should help us with better understanding of human migration. Results from ongoing projects, such as "Dynastia i społeczeństwo państwa Piastów w świetle zintegrowanych badań historycznych, antropologicznych i genomicznych" (Marek Figlerowicz) or Iron Age/Middle Ages Y-DNA comparison by Janusz Piontek will shed some light on the history of the Slavs.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,637    
21 May 2015  #77

However, I cannot find the English translation of the text of Abraham ben Jacob. Could you provide the link?
Vlad1234 8 | 201    
21 May 2015  #78

I do not understand what is the reason to establish links beween Slavs and Sarmatians. Sarmatians disappeared thousands of years ago...
What difference does it make?
Suevi/Venethi    
21 May 2015  #79

books.google.co.uk/books?id=514P4a4LkxoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

As for the country of Mieszko, it is the most extensive of their [Slavic] countries. It abounds in food and meat and honey and cultivated fields. His taxes are levied in mathalqil al-margatiyya, and they are used to pay the monthly salaries of his men, each of whom receives a fixed number. He has 3,000 shield-bearers. One hundred of his soldiers are equal of 1,000. The men are given clothing and horses and weapons and everything they require. If one of them has a child, he is immediately assigned an allowance, whether it is male or female.

cropped to 100 words

Mieszko was also mentioned in Miracula Sancti Oudalrici (ca.983-993) as "dux Wandalorum, Misico nomine" and in the annals of German Church (992) as "obiit Misica dex Vandalorum", while Widukind of Corvey wrote "Misca (or Missacam) regem, cuius potestatis erant Sclaui, qui ******** Licicaviki [name derived probably from duke Lestek, Mieszko's grandfather], duabus vicibus superavit, fratremque ipsius interfecit, predam magnam ab eo extorsi".
Crow 137 | 5,910    
21 May 2015  #80

Sarmatian name was universal name of all Slavs back in past, before name of Slavjani spread. In fact, name of Sarmats is still alive ethnic name as linguistic science confirms. It lives in the name of Serbians and Sorbs. Those are noting but local forms of Sarmatian name.

What is also interesting is that old scholars spoke of Sarmatian-Thrachian connection, as it is one and same people. So, there are historical data of Eastern Roman scholar Duca who spoke of Serbians as of Thracians. When wrote about Serbs he used name of Tribali to designate them and spoke of Serbians as of greatest Thracian tribe.

Not to say that medieval Serbian state had in use two parallel names- Serbia and Rascia (Rashka). See, word Thracia is foreign form of native Rascia/Rashka (Th-racia). It is also confirmed by linguistic science and goes hand in hand with historical reality on terrain. Mediaval Hungarians used to call Serbians, Raci. For Poles Serbs were Racowie. So, ethnic names (in Serb.) Srbi and Rasani (Serbians/Sarmatains and Rashani/Racowie/Thracians) always went together.

Slavs are Sarmatians. No dilemma, Slavs are Thracians, too. We here speak of one and same people. Just, names of Sarmatians and Thracians used scholars to designate Slavs of antiquity. Since early middle age its name of Slavjani.
Vlad1234 8 | 201    
21 May 2015  #81

If believe to this map, Sarmatians lived side to side with Balto-Slavs. Later they had been displaced be Germanic Goths tribes.

balto-slavs

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians
Suevi/Venethi    
24 Jun 2015  #82

Excerpts from "The Primary Chronicle" (ca.850-1110):

Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.

As we can see below some of the West Slavic/Venethi tribes migrated eastward:

(...) the Radimichians and the Vyatichians sprang from the Lyakhs. There were in fact among the Lyakhs two brothers, one named Radim and other Vyatko. Radim settled on the Sozh', where the people are known as Radimichians, and Vyatko with his family settled on the Oka. The people there were named Vyatichians after him.

According to Wikipedia:

Vyatichi - (...) the modern etymology places the word as a cognate to Veneti and Vandals (...) recently discovered higher percentage of Central European Genetic Marker M458 in areas around Moscow, which cannot be traced to more recent Polish immigration is due to the Vyatichi autochtonic settlement there. There is also similar marker that shows maximum in Poland and on areas of Vyatichi and Radimichs, which was called 'Vyatichi-West'.

Suevi/Venethi    
24 Jun 2015  #83

Oh, I see that article about Early Slavs (Wikipedia) was updated:

Jordanes wrote of the "Venethi", the "Sclavenes" and the "Antes", adding that all three ethnonyms referred to the one and same people (...)

Procopius completed his three works on Emperor Justinian I's reign (Buildings, History of the Wars, and Secret History) in the 550s. Each book contains detailed information on the raids conducted by Sclavenes and Antes against the Eastern Roman Empire, but the History of the Wars provides a comprehensive description of the groups, including their beliefs, customs, and dwellings. Although not an eyewitness, Procopius had personal contacts with Sclavene mercenaries fighting on the Romans' side in Italy.

Cropped - the PF rule is to not copy/paste more than 100 words from another source

^ Oh, sorry about that. Please see here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs#Historiography

The location of Lechitic Radimichs and Vyatichs, who migrated from Central Europe to Ukraine and Russia before the year 885:
images70.fotosik.pl/944/214aa04baa34276d.png

R1a-M458 (so-called West Slavic marker) distribution map:
images67.fotosik.pl/945/d0edfe7f312730f2.png

It seems that Lechitic/Venethi Radimichs and Vyatichs preserved the rituals of the Iron Age ancestors (see Pomeranian, House Urns, Przeworsk, Oksywie and other cultures where use of burial urns was so popular):

Whenever a death occurred, a feast was held over the corpse, and then a great pyre was constructed, on which the deceased was laid and burned. After the bones were collected, they were placed in a small urn and set upon a post by the roadside, even as the Vyatichians do to this day.

Not only Radimichs and Vyatichs migrated from territories of Poland/East Germany...

Craniometric Relationships among Medieval Central European Populations: Implications for Croat Migration and Expansion, 2004

Of all 25 analyzed population samples, modern Croats exhibited greatest similarities with samples from the Ukraine, Hungary, and Poland (...) The results of these analyses are fairly consistent with the report written by the anonymous writer in the 30th chapter of the "De Administrando Imperio". Principal components analysis suggested that early medieval Croats were of Slavic origin and shared a common homeland with early medieval Poles, possibly in modern Poland and almost certainly in "... an area north of Bavaria ..." from where they migrated to the east Adriatic coast.

ariets.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/15311416.pdf

The positions of the analyzed Croatian sites in relation to the observed clusters were as follows. Sites from the east Adriatic coast: Nin, Bribir, Mravinci, and Danilo were located in the lower right part of the plot in the cluster of Polish sites. Nin, the most important early medieval Croatian site, occupied almost the same position as Cedynia, an early medieval site from northern Poland.

images69.fotosik.pl/997/d2da52a594a190e1.jpg

About arrival of Croats to Dalmatia during the reign of Heraclius (610-641):

The Croats who now live in the region of Dalmatia are descended from the unbaptized Croats, also called "white", who live (...) next to Francia, and have for Slav neighbours the unbaptized Serbs. "Croats" in the Slav tongue means "those who occupy much territory" (...) And so, by command of the emperor Heraclius these same Croats defeated and expelled the Avars from those parts, and by mandate of Heraclius the emperor they settled down in that same country of the Avars, where they now dwell.

homepage.univie.ac.at/ilja.steffelbauer/DAI.pdf
Ziemowit 8 | 2,637    
25 Jun 2015  #84

The Croats who now live in the region of Dalmatia are descended from the unbaptized Croats, also called "white", who live (...) next to Francia, and have for Slav neighbours the unbaptized Serbs.

And, of course, "Fancia" means here the kingdom of Franks and not France

The white Croats as well as the white Sorbs lived on what was the territory of the former DDR (today these are the lands of Brandenburg, Saxony and Thuringen. Some of them dwell there still as a tiny minority among their neighbourghs the Germans who were also Sorbs not sovery long time ago (even under Hitler there were more of Sorben people than at present).
jon357 70 | 12,793    
25 Jun 2015  #85

Obviously it's a little more complicated than that, however the Sorbs are closely genetically related to both Polish natives and Croatians. There's also a hypothesis linking Sorbs and Ashkenazim.

Incidentally, Ignacy Krasicki helped the Sorbs establish education in their own language. Many have since emigrated to Australia and become Australians.
Suevi/Venethi    
25 Jun 2015  #86

^ That's correct.

Based on anthropological research and genetic studies we can assume that Croats were either heavily mixed with West Slavs or were in fact one of the West Slavic tribe prior to the 7th century AD.

Oh, I meant to say "That's correct, Ziemowit".

But if Croats were already Slavic upon their arrival to Dalmatia, then it means that Slavs lived in East Germany long before the reign of Heraclius (610-641). The question that arises now is when exactly did the West Slavic tribes appear in East Germany?
jon357 70 | 12,793    
25 Jun 2015  #87

hen it means that Slavs lived in East Germany long before the reign of Heraclius (610-641).

The Slavic identity emerged later.

Remember, the Population of Europe was tiny compared to today.
Suevi/Venethi    
25 Jun 2015  #88

Who knows when the Slavic identity emerged...Definitely, it was strong during the early 500s.

Procopius about migration of Heruli in 509-512:

When the Eruli, being defeated by the Lombards in the above-mentioned battle, migrated from their ancestral homes (...) crossing the Ister River, but settled at the very extremity of the world; at any rate, these men, led by many of the royal blood, traversed all the nations of the Sclaveni one after the other

gutenberg.org/files/20298/20298-h/20298-h.htm

And prior to that we have Suevi/Suavi and Venedi inhabiting Central Europe, exactly in the same places were the "early" Slavs known as Sclavi, Sclaveni, Veneti, Venethi, etc. are "found" during the early 500s.
jon357 70 | 12,793    
25 Jun 2015  #89

Who knows when the Slavic identity emerged...Definitely, it was strong during the early 500s.

The question is more about whether there was the slightest connection or continuity, and was it accretional or reductive.

Veneti

Now they were an interesting tribe.
Suevi/Venethi    
25 Jun 2015  #90

"The question is more about whether there was the slightest connection or continuity, and was it accretional or reductive."

Well, definitely here archaeogenetics could help. For example: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0110839

"Veneti"

Do you you mean Veneti, therefore Slavs from the 500s-600s (according to Jordanes, Jonas Bobiensis, Fredegar, etc.) or for example Venedi from the Peutinger Map (4th century AD) of "unknown origin"?




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