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Slavs are descendants of Sarmatians?


Vlad1234 10 | 465    
15 Mar 2019  #511
The number of Jews killed by Pagans because of some anti-semitism is Zero!

Tell it to Peter the disciple! (Joke)
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #512
till up to the WWII pope in Rome. Did you remember him helping?

Well, both the Church and the Pope did quite a lot actually, though arguably not as much as they should have done. Lets' just say that "Hitler's deputy" hardly reflects the historical reality.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #513
Well, both the Church and the Pope did quite a lot actually, though arguably not as much as they should have done.

No, they didn't. For that they had been the leading power in the whole of Europe and could and should have done so much more to stop it. Hitler's whole anti-semitism and hence later the genocide on the Jews stemmed from his christian upbringing. To many followed him because of that christian tradition. Just google the images of Hitler shaking hands and smiling with the clergy.

Later many church leader supported the Nazis as it was seen as the lesser of two choices concerning the rising danger of communism. Better the Nazis than the Reds.

I would even go so far as to say the downfall of Christianity started in these dark times...

From that after-war-white washing:

"You know what happens when atheists take over-remember Nazi Germany?" Many Christians point to Nazism, alongside Stalinism, to illustrate the perils of atheism in power.[1]

to the truth:

...In contrast, Christianity had the capacity to stop Nazism before it came to power, and to reduce or moderate its practices afterwards, but repeatedly failed to do so because the principal churches were complicit with-indeed, in the pay of-the Nazis....

Its an eye opener:

churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/the-great-scandal-christianitys-role-in-the-rise-of-the-nazis/

Thats for you Lyzko:

...Attempting to deny that Nazi anti-Semitism had a Christian component, Christian apologists exaggerate the influence of Aryan neopaganism. Actually, neopaganism never had a large following.....

...especially not during the Thirties in Germany or elswhere in Europe, I might add. To make them now to a kind of main-perpetrators is truly ridiculous. As if a deeply christian country like Germany had become a hot bed of paganism over night or were not "deeply enough christianized".

All just tries to rewrite the true nasty history by the church!
Tacitus 2 | 803    
  15 Mar 2019  #514
Europe and could and should have done so much more to stop it.

And what for example? As Stalin once said, how many divisions does the pope have? The Catholic church did in fact criticize Hitler early on before the war, (and the later pope helped writing a biting critique of Nazi-Germany), which gained a lot of attention, and did absolutely nothing to weaken the Nazi's power in Germany. Hitler did in fact use it as an opportunity to imprison and murder priests who were openly against him. There was an entire bloc in Dachau dedicated to priests. It is always easy with the knowledge of today to criticize someone. But it is important to stress that nobody inside the church could have known in e.g. 1940 that Germany would soon be defeated. Remember the continent was divided between two totalitarian powers (the SU and Nazi-Germany), so some caution was certainly warranted. The pope decided that quietly helping people would be better than making a futile gesture.

The Catholic Church (both as an institution and as individuals) did a lot to help the jews escape the Nazis, but the sad truth is that most people, especially in Germany were completely desinterested in the fate of their jewish compatriots. The only reason why e.g. von Galens famous speech against Euthanasia gained so much attention was, because he pointed out that this fate could await anyone who became "useless" to the state, including crippled veterans and old people.

Hitler's whole anti-semitism

The Catholic Church was never antisemitic. The church has a long tradition in antijudaism, which is bad enough, but a far (and deadly) cry away from antisemitism. Furthermore there is some evidence that Hitler only really became fiercely antisemitc later on, when he no longer held any deeper christian convictions.

Better the Nazis than the Reds

Which to be fair was an entirely sensible position to have at the time. The crimes of the Bolsheviks, especially against the church, were very well known back then.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #515
And what for example?

Are you kidding me?

All politicians, all Wehrmachts officers, all people in power before and during the and after the rise of the Nazis called themselves Christians...they did go to church regularly.

What do you think would have happened if the pope and all his minions had said: NO!

And then look at the images of Hitler and prominent important members of the church...all smiling and shaking hands...preachers besides the brown shirts, not exactly looking unhappy...Hitler already the Führer leaving a church, coming from a mess....

The Nazis and the german church had been close buddies!

Furthermore there is some evidence that Hitler only really became fiercely antisemitc later on, when he no longer held any deeper christian convictions.

Anti-semitism is a christian conviction...there is nothing pagan about it! For us no no imported monotheist book religion is better than the other...heh:)

The church has a long tradition in antijudaism, which is bad enough, but a far (and deadly) cry away from antisemitism.

Then why did so many Jews die in christian countries over the centuries?

With the rise of Christianity, anti-Semitism spread throughout much of Europe. Early Christians vilified Judaism in a bid to gain more converts. They accused Jews of outlandish acts such as "blood libel"-the kidnapping and murder of Christian children to use their blood to make Passover bread.

These religious attitudes were reflected in anti-Jewish economic, social and political policies that pervaded into the European Middle Ages.

history.com/topics/holocaust/anti-semitism

Don't blame it on the Pagans, man!
Dirk diggler 8 | 4,064    :-(
15 Mar 2019  #516
Then why did so many Jews die in christian countries?

Because people got sick of their Jewing and being jewed. The jews are the only people who have been kicked out of over 100 countries towns principalities etc bc eventually everyone gets sick of their b.s. the 'antisemitism' arguement doesn't hold water.
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #518
What do you think would have happened if the pope and all his minions had said: NO!

1. Most of the higher ups in the Wehrmacht were protestants who naturally did not listen to the pope.

2. The Vatican criticized the Nazi government openly in 1937, which was used by the Nazis as an opportunity to prosecute priests. It is not like this used to any significant resistance by Catholics.

Anti-semitism is a christian conviction

No it is not. It is in fact a deeply antireligious conviction (and indeed antchristian) conviction, because it assumes that one can not convert to the "true" faith, and that any Jew who got baptized still remains a jew.

The Nazis and the german church had been close buddies!

That might have been true for the German protestant church. And speaking of paganism, it was some of Hitlers buddies (e.g. Himmler) who wanted to return Germans to ther paganic roots.

@Dirk

The jews are the only people who have been kicked out of over 100 countries towns principalitie

Just goes to show you that the same old motives can be found over and over again in history. Greed, jealousy and superstition, and the jews were an attractive target for all of them.

The better question is, why did most countries who expelled their jews usually entered a significant economic and scientific decline afterwards? It took England a century to recover from its' expulsion, as did Spain, while the Ottomans benefited from this new group.

Germany never recovered its' position as former leading scientific power after WWII, but the obvious decline already began when the Nazis' purged the universities from jews and "half-jews".
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #519
1. Most of the higher ups in the Wehrmacht were protestants who naturally did not listen to the pope.

Oh please...now you're nitpicking. They too did go to church regularly to be told how to live a good christian life and to be good, to avoid sin and fight evil, weren't they?

. And speaking of paganism, it was some of Hitlers buddies (e.g. Himmler) who wanted to return Germans to ther paganic roots.

And it was Göring who was the very first Umweltschützer in Germany! Did you know that Germany had the most progressive animal laws under the Nazis? Hitler was a radical Vegan and Himmler hated smoker...so what!

The Nazis would had fit in quite well with many Greens today....

You can ignore all the links and the infos....but its a fact...without the mighty and powerful christian churches the Nazis could not have done ANYTHING!

And yes, antisemitism is a very christian "thing"!

....the phenomenon received greater institutionalization within European Christianity following the dissolution of the ancient center of Jewish culture, Jerusalem, resulting at times in the forced segregation of Jewish populations and restrictions on their participation in the public life of European society.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe
Lyzko 19 | 5,753    
15 Mar 2019  #520
@B.B.

Ahemm, think you missed my point some!
I wasn't implying that Christian anti-Semitism proved to be anything other than what it was, all I'm saying is that the reason things turned out the way they did in Nazi Germany compared with other countries within "Christian", specifically Catholic, Europe, was because Germany may have indeed superficially "welcomed", yet never EMBRACED the Judeo-Christian ethic aka the concept of 'Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself' or 'All of us are created equal before G-d' and the like.

The pagans were warriors, whose warrior gods reflected an undeveloped, essential primitive belief in the survival of the strongest, much as in the animal kingdom!

Vikings, Vandals, Goths along with those who sacked Rome, merely took what they could, as much as they could, as savagely as they pleased, taking their cues from

a society which had not graduated to the later Christian concept of respect for men, not as mere creations, but as human vs. "animal" beings.

The Nazis tapped easily into this gaping chasm of pagan Teutonic history, forces which sadly showed themselves to be far more enticing than either Christianity or certainly the Enlightenment. Here, a large degree of infantile projection is at work too. Children after all instinctively bully, tease, and torment, grabbing, taking, and pushing others out of the way until they are stopped, presumably by a parent.

It was in the end, the Allies, veterans of a society in which grassroots, functional, Christianity came to the fore, who finally slew the vicious pagan beast known as Hitlerism and saved our world.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
15 Mar 2019  #521
The better question is, why did most countries who expelled their jews usually entered a significant economic and scientific decline afterwards?....

An even better question would be WHY those societies were shooting themselves in their feet again and again needlessly if not being told again and again by their leaders that the Jews were to blame and that they had to leave...

And who had been the most powerful leaders during these centuries if not the churches and their minions preaching to the masses every sunday...
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #522
Oh please...now you're nitpicking.

Not at all. The role of both the Protestant and Catholic Church is an interesting historical subject which has drawn the attention of many historians. Particulary the Protestant Church supported the Nazis, while the Catholic church had the advantage that its' most important institution was outside of Germany, and thus less likely to be corrupted by Hitler's attempts to instrumentalize them.

without the mighty and powerful christian churches the Nazis could not have done ANYTHING!

That is statement so utterly wrong, I am surprised that you would make it. I know that particulary the GDR fostered the myth that the Church helped Hitler, but this is so beyond what is historical plausible, it borders on ludcrous.

The facts are that

- (particulary Catholic) priests and laymen were among the most numerous resistance members of the Nazis
- The Church went to great lengths protecting jews from the Nazis (though some might say they could have done more).
- Both the pope and high clergy man openly criticized Hitler. Goebbels even wrote in his diary how infuriating this was.
Lyzko 19 | 5,753    
15 Mar 2019  #523
Dr. Ludwig Mueller was the Nazi-appointed head of the Catholic Church, true enough.

Though Niemoeller and Bonhoeffer etc. both Protestants however, were among the most valiant anti-Nazis. The White Rose too had ties with figures such as Father Alfred Delp, a Catholic cleric and fervent anti-Nazi!
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #524
WHY those societies were shooting themselves in their feet again and again needlessly

The Church was rarely behind those deliberate attempts to expell jews, it were usually the kings who wanted to enrich themselves. Case in point, Karl IV who let the jews (he had sworn and been paid for to protect) be killed by their neighbors, because coty merchants promised to forgive part of his debts.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
15 Mar 2019  #525
....because Germany may have indeed superficially "welcomed", yet never EMBRACED the Judeo-Christian ethic

And which country did? In which christian country could Jews live happily along the Christians, never face pogroms, discrimination, expellation and murder?
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #526
@Lyzko

Case in point, Clemens August Graf von Galen, the "Lion of Münster". A conservative German nationalist, but also author of the most biting critique the Nazis ever had to experience. And he did this with the full backing of the pope (despite knowing that this would not protect him.
Lyzko 19 | 5,753    
15 Mar 2019  #527
Denmark, B.B. if only because there were so bloody few of them.

@Tacitus,

BINGO!!!
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #529
Christian resistance, huh? You really bought that apologist line...how gullible you are.

You count anti-Nazis who happened to be Christians against much more millions who were happy Nazis and also Christians...nobody had more power than the christian churches. They alone had it in their grubby, fat hands to end the Nazis...but they didn't!







Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #530
Denmark, B.B. if only because there were so bloody few of them.

Denmark? With his "huge" number of barely 6000 Jews? That your example?

And here I thought you were singling out Germany for not "deeply enough christianized", but that holds true for ALL christian countries (but Denmark of course), doesn't it.

No...all Germans had been Christians and listened to what was being told in their churches...more power never was! The clergy and its preachers could have ended it any given time...
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #531
nobody had more power than the christian churches.

That was not even true in the late 19th century, when Bismarck fought his Kulturkampf, and certainly not in the 20th century. Nobody listened to the Pope either when he called for an end of the bloodshed in WWI.

Remember, the Italians annexed Rome against the open resistance of the pope. And Italians were - if anything - more religious than Germans. Did that motivate them to fight against their government? No, because they prioritized their nationalist feelings over their Christian convictions, just as the Germans did later on under Hitler.

They alone had it in their grubby, fat hands to end the Nazis

The German people had it in their hand to stop Hitler, yet they did not. And it is no coincidence that many people who resisted Hitler were often deeply religious people. Again, Dachau had its' own block for priests.
Crnogorac3 1 | 337    
  15 Mar 2019  #532
@Bratwurst Boy

biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm

We were wrongly taught in school that some crazed nutter Adolf Hitler suddenly awoke one day and started hating on Jews.

The truth is the Jewish question is much older, it began centuries even before Adolf Hitler was even born. This is what official history books that have been censored won't tell you.

Here is one example of how & why the Jews were expelled from Württemberg in the 1700's.

archive.org/details/JewSuss1940
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #533
The German people had it in their hand to stop Hitler, yet they did not.

The CHRISTIAN german people! Misled by their CHRISTIAN CHURCH!

Good riddance...

The truth is the Jewish question is much older, it began centuries even before Adolf Hitler was even born.

Well..I know of that...everyone knowing history abit knows that...
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #534
If there had been enough true Christians in Germany, we would never have suffered Hitler and the Third Reich. Because no true Christians would have believed that killing innocent people is in any way acceptable.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #535
If there had been enough true Christians in Germany, we would never have suffered Hitler and the Third Reich.

Why should the "true" Christian come out now after 2 Millennia of murder, discrimination and opression?

What had all these centuries been then? Just an excercise?
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #536
JewSuss1940

Ah yes, JudSüß... A country that prides itself as the country of Goethe and Schiller, yet it also produced such filth.

Here is one example of how & why the Jews were expelled from Württemberg in the 1700's.

Indeed. Another case of lies, jealousy and greed. Q.E.D.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
15 Mar 2019  #537
2 Millennia of lies, jealousy and greed!
Tacitus 2 | 803    
  15 Mar 2019  #538
Christian come out now after

They always come out during times of crisis. The pope who protected jews during the Pest pogroms. The cardinals who wanted to outlaw slavery in the Spanish Colonies. And the many brave people who opposed the evils of Nazisms.

Unfortunately they were rarely numerous enough to really make a difference.

quote] 2 Millennia of lies, jealousy and greed!

Indeed, basic human emotions, throughout history. It is depressing to know that humans never learn. Then again, we still have people after Hitler who think that the Holocaust was justified. So on and on it goes.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,658    
  15 Mar 2019  #539
Unfortunately they were rarely numerous enough to really make a difference.

How come?

Then again, we still have people after Hitler who think that the Holocaust was justified. So on and on it goes.

And how many of them call themselves Christian....a guess?
Tacitus 2 | 803    
15 Mar 2019  #540
How come?

Because it is one thing listening to the teaching of Jesus, and quite another to actually live according to them. We can see this in Poland, which is supposedly very Christian, yet turned their back on people in need (against the demands of the popw and polish bishops).


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