News / Polish myths. Poland is one of the countries that count in the world. [49]


As an Australian I can assure you that in the early 1980’s during Solidarnosc (forgive spelling) Poland was headline news every night. And of course again in 1989.

However, in Australia we live near the Solomon Islands (recent civil war), East Timor (likewise – and only recently independent from Indonesia), Fiji (recent military coup) – broadly an unstable region. Europe as a whole is now fairly stable which is a good thing but it does tend to make the news from there comparatively dull. So it is not just Poland not getting into the news it is most of Europe. (Germany and France are in the news a lot because of their opposition to the Iraq war)

On the flip side how often does Australia get mentioned in Poland????


The guys name was Paul Edmund de Strzelecki (probably not originally Paul but the Polish equivalent). Great explorer and Polish Patriot - not necessarily a great speller - the mountain was called Mt Kosciusko (pronounced Koz - zee -osk - ko - not much like Tadeusz...). That error was not noted for manym many years.

History / Jewish belongings [118]

There were a lot of anti-semites in Poland – the Jedwabne massacres were terrible and you Poles would be better off not denying that.

Which of course you haven’t – an apology was issued by your President in 2001 I believe. Which kind of flies in the face of people who claim you never apologised.

However the attempts to compare Polish anti-semitism with nazi anti-semitism or even to say that Polish anti-semitism was worse than in other occupied countries is absurd but I’m afraid to say pretty common.

Firstly Poland never collaborated with the Nazis. The Nazis never managed to set up a puppet government in Poland unlike in every other country they occupied. They never managed to form a Polish division to fight for them – again unlike in every other country they occupied.

Also unlike every other country they occupied, there was an automatic death penalty for entire families if they were caught sheltering Jews. The Nazi regime was far more brutal in Poland than in Western Europe and Czechoslovakia. Food rations were much lower. Your intellectuals and nobility were generally slaughtered.

Nevertheless there are more Poles than any other nationality recognized by the Israeli Yad Vashem Institute – The Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, as “Righteous Among the Nations.” These were people that risked their lives to save Jews. People who were caught doing so and who were subsequently killed along with the Jews they were sheltering are not included on this list.

Zegota was the only branch of any resistance movement in all of the occupied countries dedicated solely to saving Jews. The Polish government in exile tried to make people believe what was going on but were generally disregarded.

Despite all of this the belief that the Poles were generally anti-semitic sadistic killers has grown over the years whereas such stories from other occupied countries are normally swept under the carpet. This is because Western European countries grew strong and powerful after the war and had an interest and in presenting the positive face of their WW2 involvement. Poland on the other hand had Soviet lackeys in power who wished to undermine the reputation of it’s home army (who they normally imprisoned). These Polish governments could not care if the West regarded Poles as generally anti-semitic.

It is also important now for you younger Poles to get to know both the good and dark side of your history. Like I say most of us in the West are really only aware of the darker side.

History / Jewish belongings [118]

Read the rest of the post. There were a lot of anti-semites everywhere in Europe.

And yes I agree that Poland was light years better than every other nation in Europe in the middle Ages.

Also note that when I say "a lot of Poles were", it is a lot different to saying "most Poles were"

News / How Poles truly feel about their situation in Poland and being in EU? [76]


I have seen many sledges delivered towards the Poles but this one has got to be the biggest load of b/s I have ever seen. And you don't have to know much about history to know that it is rubbish


Really? You were that anti Polish by accident???

Life / Polish Views On Public Nudity [39]

Went on a holiday with a friend in Bulgaria in 2002 at a beach resort called Sunny Beach or something similar. Was told I'd love it because of all the hot Eastern European girls on the beach.

Walked along the beach from our hotel and almost straight away came across the nude section. If there was any good looking girls on that part of the beach they were lost amongst all the 50 to 60 year old, 20 to 30 kilo overweight, German flesh. Once we got past that part of the beach there were indeed some hot Eastern European girls but we were feeling way too sick to appreciate them.

Walk down the street next time and look at everyone - not just the good looking ones. Then imagine them all naked. Clothes are generally a good thing.........

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]


Actually the poster posting some of the worst stuff about Jews is joepilsudski. Ironically I assume he was named after Joseph Pilsudski who was a pre WW2 leader of Poland that apparently had a Jewish wife and was strongly opposed to anti-semitism. I doubt that he would approve of what is been written in his name in this thread

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]


Obviously Jesus Christ had nothing against the Jews. He was Jewish himself........

History / World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World [489]

By my understanding the more legitimate Polish complaints about the British during WW2 are the following:

1. They decalared war but weren't prepared to fight (though I think the French with the largest army pre WW2 are more at fault for not attacking the Germans from the West than the British)

2. Their treaty suggested that they go to war with any European power that attacked Poland yet they did not go to war with the Soviet Union (not nice but it was understandable Britain and it's commonwealth, France and Poland combined were never likely to beat the Germans and Soviets combined)

3 After all the promises made to Poland during the battle of Britain, Churchill just offered up Eastern Poland to the Stalin in Tehran without ever consulting the Polish government in exile

4 The Warsaw uprising where no real aid was given to the insurgents and no complaints made to Stalin (in this case Churchill did try to help the AK and tried to get Stalin to help also - FDR was far more the villain here than Churchill)

5 The Yalta conference whereby FDR and Churchill recognise the Lublin government and ignored the legitimate Polish government in exile
6 The London victory Parade in 1946 which recognised all nations that help defeat the Nazis - except for Poland who gave the fourth most important contribution after the USSR, USA and Britain to this defeat.

All of these are valid complaints (and there maybe more but though I like to pretend I am, I'm definitely no historian) but those responsible are but a few dozen Brits who happened to be in power at the time. It is wrong to hold all Britain responsible (and as previously noted I don't think Poles generally hate Britain because of it)

By my understanding the more legitimate Polish complaints about the British during WW2 are the following:

1. They decalared war but weren't prepared to fight (though I think the French with the largest army pre WW2 are more at fault for not attacking the Germans from the West than the British)

2. Their treaty suggested that they go to war with any European power that attacked Poland yet they did not go to war with the Soviet Union (not nice but it was understandable Britain and it's commonwealth, France and Poland combined were never likely to beat the Germans and Soviets combined)

3 After all the promises made to Poland during the battle of Britain, Churchill just offered up Eastern Poland to the Stalin in Tehran without ever consulting the Polish government in exile

4 The Warsaw uprising where no real aid was given to the insurgents and no complaints made to Stalin (in this case Churchill did try to help the AK and tried to get Stalin to help also - FDR was far more the villain here than Churchill)

5 The Yalta conference whereby FDR and Churchill recognise the Lublin government and ignored the legitimate Polish government in exile
6 The London victory Parade in 1946 which recognised all nations that help defeat the Nazis - except for Poland who gave the fourth most important contribution after the USSR, USA and Britain to this defeat.

All of these are valid complaints (and there maybe more but though I like to pretend I am, I'm definitely no historian) but those responsible are but a few dozen Brits who happened to be in power at the time. It is wrong to hold all Britain responsible (and as previously noted I don't think Poles generally hate Britain because of it)

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]

To Biglarry, Ned, whoever.

I started off reading this thread a bit astonished by the anti-semitic posters in this thread who as one no doubt slightly embarrassed Pole felt the need to point out were mostly not Polish.

At first I agreed with you, but boy did you cross a line. In fact cross it so far that I as an irregular non-polish contributor to this forum felt the need to respond in this quite possibly over long rant.


So you are saying that Poland falls behind Western Europe because they are anti-semites?????????? Not because post WW2 after giving the fourth biggest contribution of all countries to the defeat of the Nazis, they wound up, more so than the Germans, actually losing the war and instead of democracy and the Marshall plan ended up with Communism and selling their coal to the Soviets for 10% of the market value??? Man you better read some history books.


So you’re saying the Poles deserved what they copped? Just out of interest how would you react if someone used the same phrase about Jews during the holocaust. It would be horrifically anti-semitic right???? Like Ishtathu (who also sledged the anti-semites in this thread) said, you are a hypocrite.

Now given that you seem to believe that the Poles are nothing more than a bunch of murderous anti-semites (and don’t deny that you strongly implying this especially with this quote


~~)

I feel the need to mention a book I have just completed reading. The book is Secret City by an author called Gunnar Paulsson. It is about Jews hiding in Warsaw during WW2.

Now this book contains enough incidences of anti-semitic instances even atrocities to enable you to keep your smug “I am so superior to Poles” attitude. But the conclusions the author draws, I am tipping you won’t like.

He after careful examination of hundreds of memoirs written by Jews and other sources comes to the conclusion that in Warsaw alone somewhere between 70 to 90 thousand Poles were risking their lives to protect Jews during WW2. Against this he claims that between 3 to 4 thousand Poles in Warsaw were basically “Sczmalcownik” who would look for Jews not normally to denounce them but to blackmail them into paying money for not doing so. And the other 1 million or so Polish residents of Warsaw??? Well shock, horror, gasp they acted like most normal people, whether anti-semitic or not, in their situation would. They would neither risk their and their families lives to save a Jew but nor if they saw someone they suspected of being a Jew in the street would they denounce them.

Now the numbers I have quoted above seem to be straight out of some Polish propaganda site. Except there are two problems with dismissing them that way. One is that the author, Gunnar Paulsson, is Jewish. This is only a very minor obstacle to dismissing these figures especially as members of his family were saved by Polish catholics so he might be excused for a pro Polish bias. But the main obstacle to dismissing the figures is that he researched all sources for years and that when I search on the internet I cannot find one serious academic attempting to deride the what seem to be very controversial figures he has come up with. Maybe some academic does seriously challenge his figures. However I have got to say he has keep his challenges on an obscure part of the internet.

Now undoubtedly in the horrible circumstances that existed in Poland during WW2, there were many Poles that acted in a shameful way towards the Jews. However I cannot help but seriously question your apparent belief that all Poles are somehow infused with some murderous anti-semitic virus. Or that they deserved to put up with Stalinism – especially after their huge contribution to the defeat of Nazism.

I have decided to cut my rant at this point but believe me I could add heaps more............


I tried to make this point much earlier in this thread. The real Pilsudski had a Jewish wife and was very against anti-semitism. I have got to say to say that some of his remarks are the equivalent to a poster calling himself "Mahatma Gandhi" demanding war.

News / Yitzhak Shamir - prime minister of Israel with anti-polish sentiment [41]

I am not going to dispute that these sentiments were horrible and that no leader in their right minds would now or then have dared say the same against say France or Germany (let's face it Poland was not then and is not now a particularly powerful country). However these remarks were made in 1989. Yitzhak Shamir is currently incapable of distinguishing his backside from his toe. There is certainly no need to be outraged by these remarks today.

History / Polish Jews - they changed their Jewish surnames to Polish [532]

You might want to look here........

polishforums.com/random_chat_thread_deleted_monthly-16_16241_8.html#msg302806

History / Professor Thomas Gross Threatens His 'Neighbors' - Poland atrocities [18]

The previous Kaczynski government brought in a law in 2006 that made it an offence to 'slander the Polish nation by accusing it of participating in communist or Nazi crimes.'

It is a stupid law and should be repealed. However the law is a dream come true for Jan Gross as it results in him getting even more publicity.

I have not read his books and have no idea how much truth there is in them (evidence seems to show that for Neighbours at least he exaggerated the numbers and that there was at least some German involvement). However if you want to prove him wrong then have a proper debate. Alternatively if you want him to gain more publicity, get more sympathy and make the Polish nation look worse then enact this law against him and jail him. I pretty sure Gross himself would prefer Poland try the second option....

History / Jewish love towards Poles [389]

I have not either read a book about the Bielski Brothers or watched a documentary so my knowledge of them is just gleaned from a few articles on the internet but here is my impression.

Firstly from the Bielski Brothers point of view.

They seemed more intent on their survival and the survival of the 1200 other Jews than they were in fighting in the Nazis. This is fair enough and at the end of the war they were fairly successful in this aim.

On at least one occasion they slaughtered an entire family for betraying a Jew. Ok we don’t know the circumstances behind the betrayal but the AK performed similar assassinations on Polish nationals that betrayed them (or for that matter betrayed Jews) without looking into the circumstances behind them and no one here would complain about that. It was harsh times and it called for harsh measures.

Now it is a matter of how they survived in the forest. Naturally they weren’t going to be able to survive by picking wild mushrooms. So in order to survive they inevitably had to get food from local farmers. And also they had to get weapons from somewhere. Inevitably that would mean getting in contact with Soviet partisans. Not the nicest bunch but the enemy of your enemy has to be your friend.

So if the local farmers would not give them food they would steal it. And if that meant killing a perfectly innocent farmer in order to do so, they would. Unpleasant yes but morals had to be compromised in order to survive.

It also appears that they got involved in more killing (Naliboki massacre) than was necessary to survive. If you’ve read the book or seen the documentary then you will probably know more about this.

From the Polish/Byelorussian point of view.

Firstly these guys had good reason to hate the Soviets having endured the occupation from 1939 to 1941. However it seems that whilst the numbers of Jews in hiding was small in number the local farmers still helped out when they could. However they had to meet Nazi quotas or face execution as well as attempt to feed their own families. Naturally they could not feed the Bielski (and other Soviet) partisans forever. And as the partisan raids got more aggressive they had to try to defend themselves (though pitch forks and the occasional rusty rifle were pretty pathetic defence against a bunch of well armed partisans)

From the AK point of view

Representing the Polish people naturally they had to help farmers who were being killed and robbed by Soviet and the Bielski partisans. So they decided to fight against the Soviet partisans.

Too many quite reasonable points of view to be fairly represented by a hollywood movie.

So from the movies point of view.

Bielski Brothers - great and noble.

Polish/Byelorussian farmers - badly dressed, evil anti-semites who wholeheartedly supported the Nazis and any who were killed did not suffer enough.

AK – evil anti-semitic organisation that declared war specifically against the Jews.

And if there are to be any shades of grey in the movie –then possibly the other Soviet partisans.

History / An Example of Falsifying Historical Facts and Degrading Poland [46]

I have not read any of David Irving's work. But from what I have seen written about it he is hardly complimentary of Poles. So I find it hard to believe thar people are pushing his agenda on a Polish forum (although I realise that those pushing it aren't normally Polish).

Besides which if the holocaust did not happen there are two major set of liars. The first set are Jews. The second biggest set are Poles lead by Jan Karski and the Polish government in exile.

History / More Revision of Historical Fact in Ynet News Israel (Poles engaged in slaughter of Jews?) [72]

Harry, I would have thought that as a historian your job is to review all available material and analyse it objectively. Not to dismiss an opinion after reading a couple of paragraphs because you believe the author is an anti-semite.

The equivalent would be dismissing your books without reading them on the basis that you are clearly anti-polish.

History / Irena Sendler, a Polish wartime hero, dies at age 98 [15]

Sendlerowa is sometimes referred to as Poland's Schindler but I think that underestimates her a bit. Schindler used his influence and eventually money to save who he could but Sendlerowa achieved what she did at constant risk to her life and never had any ulterior motives. Also Schindler never had to survive a Nazi torture.

In time I think Sendlerowa will be better known and become the best known Pole associated with WW2.

RIP

History / Jews-Officers in the Polish Armed Forces 1939-1945 [52]

I remember seeing a bit of the movie "Uprising" where it claims incorrectly and irrelevantly (comparing apples and oranges) that the Warsaw Ghetto uprising lasted longer than the German seige of Poland. I wondered if the producers were aware that by claiming the Polish army's performance was worse than it was that they were also slamming the efforts of over 100,000 Jews at all levels of the military.

There does not actually seem to be much interest in Jews who fought alongside Poles, though apparently there were more Jews involved in the Warsaw Uprising of 1944 than the Warsaw Ghetto uprising of 1943.

History / Jews-Officers in the Polish Armed Forces 1939-1945 [52]

How about starting a new thread on Jews in Communist secret police or whatever and leaving this one to discuss Jews who fought alongside the Poles. I'm guessing there are a lot more Jews in the later category.

It is interesting that both anti-semites and Polonophobes don't like talking about Jews fighting alongside Poles. The former because it means that Jews fought and died to protect Poland, the latter because it means that Poles weren't anti-semitic enough to stop Jews joining the army and progressing to the rank of officer.

History / Jews-Officers in the Polish Armed Forces 1939-1945 [52]


Now complain about zionism all you like but you lose all credibility with rubbish like that

History / Why we talk about Nazis not Germans [138]

Bratwurst are you sure about the 43% figure. Without bothering to google I'm fairly sure it was around 35% for one election and lower at the 1933 election which the Nazis "won"

History / Scotland and Poland. Mutual connections since 1576 [45]

The Polish food kaczanka (hope my spelling is close) seems very similar to haggis. Maybe it was bought to Poland by these Scottish immigrants???

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]


Poles needed to work in the black market else they would starve. Aso many Germans were able to make money through the black market as well so were more likely to turn a blind eye to it. Furthermore harbourng a Jew meant that you could be caught at any time, not just when performing an illegal transaction.

And I would not go suggesting that not many harboured Jews. The best estimates for Warsaw come in at 70 to 90 thousand Poles in that city alone.

History / Polish Anti-semitism - origins? [186]

Spilzman wrote his memoirs merely as a dry account to record what happened
to him rather than to express gratitude for those who saved his life (he
mentions them but there is no schmaltzy "without this man I would not be
here today" type stuff). He wrote his book in 1946 (or 1945?) and has no
agenda. As a result there are good Poles, bad Poles, good Jews, bad Jews
and at the end a decent German.

When it was made into a movie this fact clearly annoyed this guy

polish-jewish-heritage.org/Eng/luty_films_show_skewed.htm

History / An apology to Poland from Australia [55]

I'm Australian and I am not too sure about any apology to Poland for those events.

Unlike Britain and France we had no treaty with Poland so no obligation to go to war when Poland was invaded. So yes we only joined because Britain did. Furthermore, unlike Britain and especially France, we had some pretty genuine reasons for doing nothing to assist whilst Poland was being invaded. We were too far away (and besides which for the first two years of the war Britain pretty much decided when and where Australian soldiers would fight)

So whilst Menzies words were indefensible, his actions (joining the war when Britain did regardless of the reasons) were not.

Now when Poles talk about British and French "betrayal", I'd agree to some extent that they are going over the top when talking about Britain but France really should have kept it's treaty obligations and invaded Germany whilst there were so few German divisions bothering to defend their border.

As for Poles having to "thank" Britain and France for going to war for them, I also think that this is over the top. Britain and France were simply following their treaty obligations and if they had no treaty with Poland in the first place, then the Polish government would have had no choice but to make pretty big concessions in being prepared to make an alliance with either Germany or the Soviets. Had they done so they probably would have had a less brutal occupation as a result.