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An Example of Falsifying Historical Facts and Degrading Poland


scorpio 20 | 188  
1 May 2008 /  #1
In today's IsraelNationalNews, some historical facts were either greatly exaggerated or simply false in the article, "Ready to be Reclaimed: Jewish Property in Poland" by Hillel Fendel.

To begin with, the article states: "Life (Jewish) was erased, but property was not; it is still there."

The above statement is not entirely correct. Under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, adjusted by agreement on 28 September 1939, the Soviet Union annexed all Polish territory east of the line of the rivers Pisa, Narew, Western Bug, and San, except for Wilno Voivodship with its capital Wilno (Vilnius), which was given to Lithuania, and the Suwałki region, which was annexed by Nazi Germany. Initially captured by Poland in a series of wars between 1918 and 1921 (primarily the Polish-Soviet War), these territories had mixed population of different nationalities with Poles and Ukrainians being the most numerous ethnic groups, as well as large minorities of Belarusians and Jews. The total area, including the area given to Lithuania, was 201,015 square kilometres, with a population of 13.299 million, of which 5.274 million were ethnic Poles and 1.109 million were Jews. An additional 138,000 ethnic Poles and 198,000 Jews fled the German occupied zone and became refugees in the Soviet occupied region.

So, given those facts, current day Poland (physical land area) contains former properties of approximately 2/3 of the Jews (about 2,000,000) that lived in pre-WWII Poland, and not all of them. Hence, a large portion of the property in Poland 'has been erased', and 'not all of it is still there'. A large stake is still located in Lithuania, Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine. About 1,000,000 of Poland's Jews lived in the former Eastern lands.

The article also stated: "By not trying to claim these properties, we are allowing a situation of allowing the murderers to inherit as well...".

In essence, the author is accusing the Poles of being the murderers of the Jews during WWII, not the Germans. Any Poles that did murder Jews represent only a tiny minority of the general population, too small to even be considered significant.

in another article entitled, "No Tears in Poland", Kate Rosenberg says:
"Last night I arrived in Krakow. It was cold. The air was wet. I waited alone in this cold wet for 20 minutes.

A drunk woman stopped and swayed in front of me for a few minutes. She kindly left me an empty flask of Wodki. I felt lonely.

Finally the owner of the apartment arrived. The building smelt of cat urine. There were young men standing on the lower floor drinking."

Why even mention a 'drunk woman and a building that may have smelt of cat urine' ? How were these descriptions even integral to the heart of her article? Too me, it seems the author of the blog was only trying to show how 'uncivilized Poland is', and possibly attempting to related to her readers that Poland prior to WWII was this way. Well, to be fair, she also should have mentioned all of the prostitutes and brothels that are in Israel today, and that Israel has one of the largest sex industries and women trafficking in the entire world. It's brothels are full of 'drunks' flirting with prostitutes and the mafia present everywhere. Fair enough? I think so.

These type of news stories are only a 'drop in the bucket' when it comes to historical revision and degrading Poles and Poland. When will it ever end?
isthatu2 4 | 2,702  
1 May 2008 /  #2
When will it ever end?

When you stop with the self pity already......jeez,you Poles and Jews are so alike,both want to be the hardest done by in history and both stick out your metaphorical bottom lip and pout way too much......
Seanus 15 | 19,706  
1 May 2008 /  #3
Yeah, right!! WWII ended 62/63 years ago, communism only 19. People will draw their own conclusions anyway
osiol 55 | 3,922  
1 May 2008 /  #4
It does look as though Poland may be one target amongst many. It could also be that Poland is an easier target.
Harry  
1 May 2008 /  #5
I never understand why Poles have this Christ complex. They need to understand that either: a) they are not being persecuted and so need to get over it; or b) they are being persecuted by everybody and work out what it is they do which makes everybody hate them.
Przemas 1 | 101  
1 May 2008 /  #6
Man, the Jews really do have a hard-on for us. Move the f... on already and go live your lives.
janekb - | 57  
1 May 2008 /  #7
I would not give a f..k what some a..hole writes. When they visit I, for one, will make sure they know how much I like them. Come to think about it, isn't something strange with these lot that they are so much despised everywhere they are. Somehow everyone persecutes them - they should look into themselves, it must be something wrong with them.
Kaylyn - | 14  
1 May 2008 /  #8
1) Poles WERE hard done by
2) At least they're not vengeful about it like other countries are, they ARE trying to
get over it and progress, that's admirable

And yes, I do think Poland is an easy target for articles like this due to ignorance and stereotypes
OP scorpio 20 | 188  
2 May 2008 /  #9
Listen, I am all for individuals and their relatives getting either their property back, or at least some monetary compensation. Polish Catholics and the Polish government lost a large chunk of their land after WWII, including cities like Wilno, Grodno, Lwow, Stanislawow, Tarnopol, and the thousands of private estates, palaces, castles, etc. The Polish government, and Polish Catholics, lost far more assets during the war than their fellow Polish Jews, and yet, who is it today that contantly demands restitution and whines about it? Do you see Poles demanding all of their former Eastern territories back today? No. And yet, many Jewish individuals, just like the author of this article, still think that all former Jewish properties are located in the present day boundries of Poland. They fail to realize that Poland's borders and population shifted greately after the war.

For that approximately 1/3 of Polish Jews who lived in the former Eastern territories of Poland, should present day Poland pay restitution for those properties? This is the point I was trying to make. Approximately 1,000,000 individuals isn't a small number and I wouldn't even mention this fact of Poland's borders if it were a small number. Also, Poland lost enormous wealth by losing her Eastern properties. If Jews can get compensation for their properties lost in "Poland", then why can't Poles get compensation from Russia for their large piece of Eastern territories and properties ("Kresy") lost? Sounds like hypocrism, doesn't it? Jewish historians and holocaust restitution 'assessors' should keep in mind the shifting of Poland's borders after the war, when calculating how much former Jewish wealth remains in present day Poland's borders. They should also calculate how much wealth Polish Catholics lost in the East after the war, and then ask themselves, "Are we the only one's that lost assets during WWII?"

The point in showing the second article was to provide an example of how certain Jewish authors enjoy describing some small, unflattering trivial items in Poland during their visits here. It is so common for them to talk about the 'drunks' they encounter or the "smell of urine". Every country has these negative vices and isn't something only encountered in Poland. To mention such facts along with mourning fellow Jews that perished in the 'holocaust' doesn't make sense. It seems more like the author is simply painting an ugly picture of Poland for personal reasons.

Poland has taken great strides to 'bend down' to Jews and make unnecessary apologies. Have Jews apologized for the their large number in the communist apparatus, that tortured, killed, and deported thousands of Polish Catholics yet? No, it hasn't happened.
Crow 160 | 10,261  
2 May 2008 /  #10
Don`t worry my brotherly Poles. Brits would learn you what is multiculturalism and tolerance. Then, they would share your resources with you and tell you how to use it on behalf of who knows who. In the same time, having simpaty for Pan-Slavic feelings is considered to be barbaric and in the opposition to ruling political line.

put cross on yourself and read...

Prince Charles and Camilla open Jewish centre in Poland

Prince Charles Coming to Cracow
Warsaw Voice, 16 April 2008
warsawvoice.pl/view/17584

Britain's Prince Charles and his wife Camilla Parker Bowles, the Duchess of Cornwall, will visit Cracow on April 29 to open the Cracow Jewish Community Center.

Crnogorac 3 | 111  
2 May 2008 /  #11
1989 Communist Poland - Auschwitz Memorial Plaque (claiming 4 million dead)

2004 Democratic Poland - Auschwitz Memorial Plaque (claiming 1.5 million dead)
Harry  
2 May 2008 /  #12
When they visit I, for one, will make sure they know how much I like them. Come to think about it, isn't something strange with these lot that they are so much despised everywhere they are. Somehow everyone persecutes them - they should look into themselves, it must be something wrong with them.

Sorry but are you talking about Israelis or Poles when you say "they"?
Crnogorac 3 | 111  
2 May 2008 /  #13
Jews In Europe

- 1938:
8,039,608

- 1948:
9,372,668

r

And Now

h

Holocaust = Holohoax
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 May 2008 /  #14
Polish Catholics lost in the East after the war, and then ask themselves, "Are we the only one's that lost assets during WWII?"

1.7 million in "Kresy" could be higher but Russia will not releace files.

What no one wants to look at is the tears of silence when victims of Stalin could not speak out. Remember "katyn" is only part of the story.

Read: 'The bloodshed had to be shown'

At 80, Andrzej Wajda has made the bravest film of his career: a graphic account of the killing of 8,000 Polish officers. He tells Geoffrey Macnab why the story meant so much to him

"This film is not against the Russian people. It is about the horrors of the Stalin regime. In this forest in Katyn, there were many thousands of Russian civilians and soldiers killed brutally and put into mass graves. It was a graveyard for both the Poles and the Russians."

arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2277152,00.html
Zgubiony 15 | 1,554  
2 May 2008 /  #15
I can't believe you're actually posting things from biblestudysite. That site is total rubbish......it's all Politics and the 2 should NEVER go together. This doesn't prove anything.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 May 2008 /  #16
posting things from biblestudysite

who are you referring to?
Zgubiony 15 | 1,554  
2 May 2008 /  #17
Did you post anything from them?

;)

no
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 May 2008 /  #18
Did you post anything from them?

I replied to "Roman Catholic's.
Crnogorac 3 | 111  
2 May 2008 /  #19
I can't believe you're actually posting things from biblestudysite. That site is total rubbish......it's all Politics and the 2 should NEVER go together. This doesn't prove anything.

If you're talking about the first image then here, just for you exactly the same from another site. This clearly shows that the Jewish Bolshevik political commissars who were in control of Poland and the Soviet Union at the time, purposely inflated the numbers as a resort of psychological warfare and false propaganda.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 May 2008 /  #20
false propaganda.

In the USA I was told by one of the main musuems that "Stalin" and "Catholic" victims did not belong in the "Holocaust". A billion dollar per year vitimization, in the USA. Victims had to be "Jewish" and crimes by "Nazi's".

Now that the property claims are being accepted for crimes by "Stalin" we see this added in the "Holocaust" history. That would mean all this money in "Swiss" bank accounts should include all victims. Funny how some can pick an choose.

Where would I find the total in "Holocaust" restitution to date?
IronsE11 2 | 442  
2 May 2008 /  #21
Holocaust = Holohoax

Crnogorac = David Irving
southern 75 | 7,096  
2 May 2008 /  #22
The classic question is how many Jews could be burnt in small facilities like these of Auschwitz.Anyway we get here inot dangerous area.
IronsE11 2 | 442  
2 May 2008 /  #23
The holocaust is open to historical debate, it shouldn't be a dangerous area.

People who deny it ever occurred however, are either incredibly ignorant historians (who are laughed at by their contemporaries), or neo-Nazis with an agenda.

I wouldn't like to pass judgement on Crnogorac. He is either a complete idiot or a Nazi. I'm not sure what is worse!!
southern 75 | 7,096  
2 May 2008 /  #24
The holocaust is open to historical debate, it shouldn't be a dangerous area.

It is not open.In Germany,Austria and other countries if you open this discussion you may face legal consequences.It is likely we get reported as well if we open it.

People who deny it ever occurred however, are either incredibly ignorant historians (who are laughed at by their contemporaries), or neo-Nazis with an agenda.

Is this a normal scientific statement?If you doubt sth,you are ignorant or prejudiced?

Crnogorac. He is either a complete idiot or a Nazi.

He is a Slav nationalist.Neither of the two.
He should remember that Israel helped actively the Serbs in Bosnia by providing them with ammunition and a lot more.So they should not complain.
IronsE11 2 | 442  
2 May 2008 /  #25
It is not open.In Germany,Austria and other countries if you open this discussion you may face legal consequences.It is likely we get reported as well if we open it.

Incorrect. It is illegal to deny it, not to debate it.

Holocaust = Holohoax

Suggests straight denial, therefore I stand by the following point:

People who deny it ever occurred however, are either incredibly ignorant historians (who are laughed at by their contemporaries), or neo-Nazis with an agenda.

Is this a normal scientific statement?If you doubt sth,you are ignorant or prejudiced?

I have a degree in history and have studied the work of David Irving. He is viewed as a joke by his contemporaries (most don't even recognise him as a historian). His work is completely disregarded. This is because it is utter bollocks. He is an anti-semite with an agenda as are most deniers.

He is a Slav nationalist.Neither of the two

I use the term Nazi quite liberally. Maybe I should use the term neo-Nazi (or simply someone who shares Adolf's hatred of the Jews).
southern 75 | 7,096  
2 May 2008 /  #26
of David Irving. He is viewed as a joke

If he is a joke,why is he in prison?
There is not only David Irving.There are other scepticists as well like Roger Garontee who is famous in France.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 May 2008 /  #27
It is illegal to deny it, not to debate it.

German Sentenced to 10 Months for Hitler Greeting

spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,550430,00.html
IronsE11 2 | 442  
2 May 2008 /  #28
If he is a joke,why is he in prison?

He's viewed as a joke by the vast majority of historians. My best friend's grandmother is a very famous holocaust survivor who gives talks in London. She was asked to enter in to a debate with him, she refused on the grounds that entering such a debate (whether the holocaust actually occurred or not) simply legitimizes it.

Irving is in prison because, as you alluded to, holocaust denial is illegal in certain countries. His work is debated then (correctly) dismissed in English universities. The reason for this is that it is historically inaccurate.

If I argued that Hitler never invaded Poland, should my historical work be given any credence? Would it be debated in universities? The answer is no because it is bollocks, as is the ramblings of holocaust deniers.

Any intelligent person who has studied history will tell you this!

German Sentenced to 10 Months for Hitler Greeting

spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,550430,00.html

'A judge called Horst Mahler "utterly incorrigible" after he denied the Holocaust, again, in open court.'

'Charges against Mahler include sedition, using gestures of an anti-constitutional organization and criminal insult. Holocaust denial in Germany falls under the crime of sedition, or Volksverhetzung, because it's regarded as an incitement against Jews as an ethnic group.'

As i said, holcaust denial is illegal in some countries, thus the prison sentence. This man is clearly a Nazi which I think enforces my argument about the non-historical anti-semitic agenda of deniers.

This is not historical debate, it is not a quest for knowledge. We shouldn't even consider talking about it.
celinski 31 | 1,258  
2 May 2008 /  #29
You would think if there is so many questions and different stories, it would be something that you would want to be talked about openly. Why should this or any other history be off topic?

This is not historical debate, it is not a quest for knowledge. We shouldn't even consider talking about it.

"I think it was completely the right thing to do and and I think it is completely right that communist mass murders are included. But in the long term it is of course the task of schools to teach history. In the future it should not be the job of a particular forum. The agency came about as a result of failures in educational policy," said Björklund.

thelocal.se/10860/20080402
IronsE11 2 | 442  
2 May 2008 /  #30
You would think if there is so many questions and differant stories, it would be something that you would want to be talked about openly. Why should this or any other history be off topic?

You are confusing historical analysis/debate of the Holocaust with outright denial. There is a clear difference. Deniers attempt to manifest their agenda through the false notion that they are historians debating/analysing a point.

They are not historians, they are simply anti-semites with an agenda. Please find me one denier who does not have known links with the far right! Does this not tell you something? Any such denier who labels himself a historian would not be taken seriously by any of his contemporaries. Does the fact that all credible historians maintain the holocaust happened not tell you something?

Whether denial should be a criminal offence is a point of debate. For what it's worth, I don't believe it should. In England we allow deniers to express their views then use the evidence on hand to destroy the credibility of their theories. It's in my opinion, the best way to maintain freedom of speech but also nip in the bud any anti-semite agendas dressed as 'historical debate'. The situation is slightly different in Austria/Germany for reasons which have been alluded to already.

You suggest that no 'history' should be off topic. I'm not suggesting it should be off topic, merely that it is not given the time of day (i.e. taught in schools etc). If I came up with a historical theory which maintained that Hitler never invaded Poland, should this be taught as an alternative history? No. Why? Because it's made-up bollocks, just like Holocaust denial. The difference, is I made my theory up to illustrate a point, deniers made up their theory because they hate Jews.

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