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Visiting Poland - A bit worried about social attitudes and racist inclinations..


OP hot_coffee
29 Jan 2011 #31
Europeans can be described as Caucasian. Someone born from Sri Lankan parents will never be native European.

I think you're living in the dark ages. In the modern world being European is a global identity based on citizenship. Whereas Caucasian is a race. Remember that all of us were native African before we were so called native European or otherwise. So when do you start do draw the line on this distinction.

white

It sounds like you've got a hateful predisposition towards inter-racial relationships. Remember you are not in a position to judge every woman's taste and speak for her. what you consider to be ugly might be another woman's cuppa. And single white guys shouldn't be threatened by this at all. To be honest you really are bordering on inciting racial hatred. Not a good ambassador for Poland, if you are a pole that is.

Unfortunately you didn't react to my question whether you understand the guys that dislike you immediately when they see you walking with a Caucasian woman?

I'm not really sure I do understand why they reacted the way they did. And I'm not in a position to go around explaining myself and educating everyone who feels that way. We live in a free world where one has the right to express ones free-will (without hindering someone else's) and not be called a heretic or regarded as a social outcast.

Seriously - don't go to Poland. These ignorant people would call you an Indian and question your ethnicity all the time.

No I'm sure I shouldn't give up a holiday just because of a few ignorant people.. I will just call them Russians :) and we can laugh about it...
anastazja
29 Jan 2011 #32
hot_coffee

in Warsaw you won't be anything unusual. It's kind of city where live people from all over the world. There might happen some unpleasent situation if you will have bad lack but rather don't expect it. Don't listen to grubas and Sokrates they are trolls

Oh and jarnowa (a Belgian guy) is also famouse racist here. Don'y even bother to discuss with him (btw. now you have proof that even in such Eusopean country as Belgium you can meet with racism)
casey
29 Jan 2011 #33
I have known personally many Polish people and lived in Poland. When I saw this blog I was interested in the truth of my own experiences. So I made a list of how many Polish people I know, then how many of them are racist, not racist and not applicable (judged by words and behavior). Like an observational experiment. My results are, about 80% of the Polish people I know and observed displayed racist behavior on varying levels. Some of the more unpleasant racist situations by Poles I experienced was when some Poles called the native women of our area (where we all live) as a type of animal that we commonly see in the wild. They said this as if they as Poles were "normal" and those women were not normal (even though those people were there thousands of years before any white person ever showed up), and as if they themselves are immune to being called any names. Other memorable examples are when some Polish people referred to BMW as "black mans wish," and other jokes about black people being so scared they look white. Well, I know of a lot of people wishing for a BMW, and they were not necessarily black, so this was painfully racist to me to hear this ignorance. I thought, what if they reversed those comments on white people looking black, and I could not imagine any of the Poles saying this about any white people if the roles were reversed. They were focused only on black, darker or native people. This type talk from these Poles were hurtful and discriminating against these people, and the Poles would have a big problem if those people heard those Poles talking about them like that. There are probably many reasons for this behavior, but the fact is they this did occur, and it is cruel and oppressive. My observation of racism by Polish people, though not by all of them, was extremely unpleasant for me, as my culture is relatively open to people from everywhere. I know from living in the US that there was a lot of racism but it is mostly and increasingly absent for the past few decades and even reversed in most regions now, except for what I observed from those in the military, older people, and white supremacist groups, of course, as well as a few other groups. But mainstream society in the US seems to have gotten over the affliction of racist. Not the case with the Poles I saw being racist at this very time. And usually, those Racist Poles and americans were also discriminative towards other groups as well, like sexist and anti-homosexual. So my experience likens to Poles behaving like the worst-behaving in the US, how the US behaved in the past from decades to hundreds of years ago, and how people behaved during the medieval ages, from what I have read. It's like most Poles are stuck and still living in the past, like they haven't adapted and caught on yet as much as the rest of western societies have for acceptance of different peoples. Living in their country was like living in the past in many ways, some good, some not good (mostly not). I know Poles are coming out of a rough time, but I caution others with my experience to be prepared and protect yourselves while there. I believe the best defense against racist Poles is to stand up and speak for yourself if you have darker skin. I have seen that Poles are not such violent people for an eastern European country, so I don't think there is much concern for physical retaliation in Poland if one were to speak out and say, no that's wrong, that's offensive, etc. If they think about it, I think they may be open to changing their perspectives. Maybe, hopefully, for their sakes. I hope other people have had different experiences than mine, more pleasant with Poles about racism, not that all of mine are negative. From all this, I do think Poles today tend towards being racist moreso than most other western countries. I think and have seen that eastern Europe in general tends to be rather racist, with Poland being socially and geographically on the westernmost border of eastern Europe. From my travels I do think they are advanced compared to the other eastern European countries with which Poles share a common Slavic language, history, and some religion. Thanks for reading this novel if you did.
jarnowa 4 | 499
29 Jan 2011 #34
I think you're living in the dark ages. In the modern world being European is a global identity based on citizenship.

'European' is not defined. Most Europeans identify themselves based on their background, their parents and ancestors to be more precisely.

Most Europeans, as well as many African/Asian immigrants to Europe, don't identify themselves based on the citizenship they have or the country they live in.

I lived longer in other countries than in Belgium, but i will always be Belgian (actually Flemish but you are already confused so i don't want to confuse you even further with internal Belgian affairs) even though i give up my Belgian passport and appy for a Polish or other European passport.

Even if i would choose to live in Sri Lanka for the rest of my life, i will never call myself Sri Lankan or Asian, as i know this is BS. Same goes for Asians moving to Africa, they will never be African.

The only reason why Asians and Africans call themselves "European" is because they hope it benefits them somehow. Nice try, but it won't always work.

It sounds like you've got a hateful predisposition towards inter-racial relationships.

No, as everyone knows, i don't care about white men dating coloured women, or white women who travel to Sri Lanka or other nonwhite countries and then fall in love with a local guy.

And single white guys shouldn't be threatened by this at all. To be honest you really are bordering on inciting racial hatred. Not a good ambassador for Poland, if you are a pole that is.

I am not Polish and it's not fair to use the cheap and boring 'racism' argument. I even wrote:

Being south Asian of course doesn't make you a worse person.

I'm not really sure I do understand why they reacted the way they did. And I'm not in a position to go around explaining myself and educating everyone who feels that way. We live in a free world where one has the right to express ones free-will (without hindering someone else's) and not be called a heretic or regarded as a social outcast.

That's not answering my question. Let's put it in other words: after the example i gave you, is it still difficult to understand why some Caucasian guys will look negatively to you when they see another coloured guy dating a Caucasian woman?
OP hot_coffee
29 Jan 2011 #35
Jarnowa really is a sad case..You really have got an inferiority complex mate and you need to sort it out before you eventually do something silly or regrettable.

Oh and jarnowa (a Belgian guy) is also famouse racist here. Don'y even bother to discuss with him (btw. now you have proof that even in such Eusopean country as Belgium you can meet with racism)

I think I will take your advice and ignore this Muppet completely. Maybe that way we can actually have an intelligent discussion about the original topic here...

I don't think there is much concern for physical retaliation in Poland if one were to speak out and say, no that's wrong, that's offensive, etc.

Sounds like you've had quite a negative experience out there, judging by your novel. I dont think I really want to even think of physical altercations in poland regarding this issue because that would certainly spoil my holiday..

I saw this documentary where neo-nazi racist groups were recruiting young men and training them in hand to hand combat and weapons in secret locations in the jungle, just to fight immigrants, foreign students and holiday makers. The documentary said that this is happening all over eastern europe especially in Russia. I believe it was one of these groups that beheaded and shot some immigrants in the forest, filmed it and distributed it on the net with a threat to all immigrants. I have seen the video and I know this is a true story.. I'm not comparing Russia to Poland but they said it was a growing trend. Check the link -

nytimes.com/2008/06/09/world/europe/09iht-russia.4.13582443.html
convex 20 | 3,978
29 Jan 2011 #36
have you ever considered your surpressed (barely) rage might have something to do with not admitting to yourself just which of the 2 parties( black man/white girl) you are jealous of?

On the otherhand, say what you want but he's consistent, and doesn't use ad hominem in his posts.

Anyway, OP, you'll be fine. Yea, you'll get some stares, just stay smart and realize that you're not going to change attitudes overnight. Getting your ass kicked while trying to prove a point to someone that doesn't care still means you end up with your ass getting kicked.

You're gotten plenty of advice in this thread on what to watch out for. There's a vocal minority that don't like darker folks. Avoid them and hang out with the vast majority of people that don't have a chip on their shoulder.
isthatu2 4 | 2,704
29 Jan 2011 #37
ad hominem

sorry? I dropped Law after 6 months :) ad what now?
edit,oh yeah,...
Ad hominem abuse (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his or her argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically spot on because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have everything to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

point taken ;)
southern 75 | 7,096
29 Jan 2011 #38
that just a few is enough to disturb the competition significantly.

It is not only that they draw some girls.It is also that:
1.They increase the demands of the rest
2.They scare the girls so that they see the foreigner as sex thirsty low level dirty man instead of a gallant foreigner with bright intentions

3.They bring awful conservatism by not allowing their girlfriends let other guys talk to them or dress as they used to dress before or worse by converting them to muslim faith.

In this way they create an army of frustrated white males who would have found relief if the colored had not been there.
Here we do not talk about countries like Sweden where the girls are wise enough to avoid coloreds and instead arab women make the right choice choosing white men leaving muslim men sexless and tending to raping to discharge their frustration.

If the same white-first behaviour was adopted by slavic females there would be no problems but due to historical,social,economical reasons and the pussifying of slavic males the situation is reversed to that of western countries.
jarnowa 4 | 499
29 Jan 2011 #39
Hot_coffee, i understand if you would ignore me, i was able to defy all your arguments in your last post addressed to me:

identity based on citizenship.

hateful predisposition towards inter-racial relationships

inciting racial hatred

(anyone can read back to see that i am not lying)

That's why you give up now and choose the easy way to join the other agressive fellows who fail to argue and choose to insult instead.

It's sad because it confirms the prejudice that guys like you see racism everywhere instead of the real thing: the healthy biological resistance of people against unsollicited intruders to one's habitat.
jonni 16 | 2,485
29 Jan 2011 #40
the healthy biological resistance of people against unsollicited intruders to one's habitat.

Habitat, means the place where one lives. A black person living in, say, Wroclaw, is as entitled as you are, if not more so, to call it their habitat. An intruder is someone who enters a place without justification. Someone with a legal right to be where they are is not an "intruder".

There are plenty of whites, some of them no doubt from Belgium, who've spent time in PL (especially pre-EU entry) with gaps in their paperwork, including PolAms without citizenship. Which makes them intruders.

Much better not to use such language.
kondzior 10 | 961
29 Jan 2011 #41
Hi, Coffee. Opinions of some deluded Belgians notwithstanding, most Poles don't really care about your skin color or ethnicity.It can look like that to some people, because playing a racist card hardly works here. We have never had slaves, so we do not feel that so called western guilt :D As a matter of fact, some of us find a wickied pleasure in acting anti-PC in company of some holier then thou foreigners... Just do not expect that people will step back because they don't want to be seen as racist.

In other words, if some black person iritates me seriously for any unrelated reason, I'd have no qualms about using, err... nicknames... that, as I know, are extremaly offensive to people with certain skin color. Not that I have anything against said color or ethnicity. Neither I'll care about him taking me for a racist. He'll surly think that. So what? No, really, what of it?
vetala - | 382
29 Jan 2011 #42
I saw this documentary where neo-nazi racist groups were recruiting young men and training them in hand to hand combat and weapons in secret locations in the jungle, just to fight immigrants, foreign students and holiday makers.

Dude... I share a room with non-white foreign students, some of them are also my neighbours. There is no manhunt after them. You're panicking over nothing, you'll be fine. You might as well believe that your Polish girlfriend is in mortal danger in Great Britain because some Poles were beaten up or killed there.

some Poles called the native women of our area (where we all live) as a type of animal that we commonly see in the wild. They said this as if they as Poles were "normal" and those women were not normal (even though those people were there thousands of years before any white person ever showed up)

In Poland? You're joking right?

Or wait - you're ACTUALLY considering Polish Americans and Poles to be one and the same? Shows your ignorance. Don't take part in discussions if you can't tell an American from a Pole.
NomadatNet 1 | 457
29 Jan 2011 #43
In last several years, internet was full with the words about muslims, etc.
Lately, it is more about the color; white, black,.
It is because there is a black in White House now?
jarnowa 4 | 499
29 Jan 2011 #44
Habitat, means the place where one lives. A black person living in, say, Wroclaw, is as entitled as you are, if not more so, to call it their habitat. An intruder is someone who enters a place without justification. Someone with a legal right to be where they are is not an "intruder".

There's very few people in the world whose feelings towards other people depends on their citizenship status. I hope you are not seriously expecting that people eventually will see, maybe aided by PC brainwashing campaigns, illegal immigrants as intruders and legal immigrants as welcome guests.

This is not how human psychology works. Most people only judge that some immigrant is an intruder if he or she somehow is seen as a nuisance or threat. That's why i never would call every immigrant an intruder, only those who deserve this title.

My respect for reacting normally, i guess that's quite hard for people having similar opinions as you.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
29 Jan 2011 #45
like they haven't adapted and caught on yet as much as the rest of western societies have for acceptance of different peoples. Living in their country was like living in the past in many ways, some good, some not good (mostly not).

It seems as though you have different expectations of 'western societies' and others, which strictly speaking could be considered a racist attitude in itself, as all people should abide by the same standards regardless of where they come from. And you talk about racism as if it was somehow outdated and in the past, without taking into account some of the virulent forms of state sponsored racism you find in places like Africa today. Have you ever heard of Robert Mugabe, or Julius Malema?
englishwarsaw - | 5
30 Jan 2011 #46
See abmip.blogspot.com: A Black Man in Poland, for actual experience.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
30 Jan 2011 #47
That is a really interesting read, I love the way he explains his thought process, I hope he keeps this up.
poland_
30 Jan 2011 #48
He is naturally a negative person as he admits, with the help of a old Polish lady he is making a journey to change his everyday approach to life. I would say Poland has had a positive impact on him.

Moreover, on the point of Poles and racist attitude/speech "Post 34 Casey" 80% of your Polish friends have made racist comments, it is apparent you do not understand Polish translation. Firstly the word " murzyn" is considered acceptable by Poles, "czarno skory or czarny" is considered not acceptable by Poles. The term " murzyn " would be considered not acceptable by a non Pole, although "czarno skory or czarny" would be considered acceptable by non Poles. Many of the problems are in the translation, having spent over twenty years visiting and living in Poland, I can say with some authority, Poles are not racist in my opinion, though they may not have reached the levels of the west and its "Politically correct Dogma". As the saying goes from my mouth to gods ears " lets hope they never do, the PC virus which the liberals gladly take on, has infected and destroyed most of the old EU and good old USA"
milky 13 | 1,657
30 Jan 2011 #49
Politically correct Dogma".

Good point,however,it is alarming that a considerable amount of Poles, that i have met are racist,and yet there are no blacks in the country. I'd hate to see what would happen if there was a black man in town.
grubas 12 | 1,391
30 Jan 2011 #50
I will just call them Russians :) and we can laugh about it...

You better do not.They won't laugh but rather break your nose.A piece of advice, avoid any discussion with drunk bullies.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
30 Jan 2011 #51
The term " murzyn " would be considered not acceptable by a non Pole, although "czarno skory or czarny" would be considered acceptable by non Poles.

What ***** me off, is that when people use the word racism or talk about racism they almost inevitably talk or mean white racism. But the facts of the world are, that some of the worst forms of racism in the world today are not even in "white" societies.
poland_
30 Jan 2011 #52
You referring to the UK again, I checked the thread topic " Visiting Poland - A bit worried about social attitudes and racist inclinations." so we have been on topic. I therefore take it you wish to lead on to South Africa.
Ironside 49 | 10,010
30 Jan 2011 #53
Boo!
To address your worries - be sensible in your action - nobody is going to jump at your throat!
rychlik 41 | 373
31 Jan 2011 #54
Polish guy in Canada here: I kind of cringe at Polish biatches with dark guys because I don't find dark women attractive so then the dating pool gets smaller and smaller. Is the trade off fair for white men? No.

I believe people will have the least problems in relationships and marriages when they are with a partner from the same/similar culture and religion. This is proven time and time again- especially in multi-culti societies. Poles are smart for being cautious.

Polish girl+dark guy= AIDS for her :)
klakak 4 | 32
31 Jan 2011 #55
Why does everything have to be about race? I hear it all the time here, on TV, on these forums, ect ect ect.
Quit whining about it. Stop worrying about it.
It's not like someone is going to beat you for being different.
If someone is racist towards you (and I don't think it's likely in Poland), just ignore them and just move on. Don't let some ignorant douche ruin your day.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
31 Jan 2011 #56
You referring to the UK again, I checked the thread topic " Visiting Poland - A bit worried about social attitudes and racist inclinations." so we have been on topic. I therefore take it you wish to lead on to South Africa.

I am making the point that no one country or nation has a monopoly on racism, it exists in every society and culture, it might manifest itself more in some cultures than others but it exists everywhere.

In some ways this is a part of human nature, a fear of the other and an inclination to stick to the familiar, in many respects it comes down to human judgement and how we judge others. In some respects judgement is inseparable from human nature, though there are different types of judgment.

Some people would be very willing to believe certain stereotypes, which some times might be reinforced by personal experience and observation, and consequently have a certain view of people, but this does not necessarily follow that that they will judge an individual based on their perception of the group.

A good example of this might be, let say the former president of the US Nixon. Outwardly he was in favor of equality, however as revealed in his recent tapes by the Nixon Library, he held what might be considered as very racist views by today's standards.
convex 20 | 3,978
31 Jan 2011 #57
I am making the point that no one country or nation has a monopoly on racism, it exists in every society and culture, it might manifest itself more in some cultures than others but it exists everywhere.

And the OP was asking how he might be affected by racism in Poland, like say, having a bottle slung at you from an overpass. No one is saying that racism is confined to Poland, or that it's not a problem anywhere else. OP was asking a reasonable question.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
31 Jan 2011 #58
My main point was addressed to Casey, who was making distinctions between societies and placing higher expectations on some without expecting the same from others.
poland_
31 Jan 2011 #59
I believe people will have the least problems in relationships and marriages when they are with a partner from the same/similar culture and religion.

That is a fair point, although there are exceptions. If two people are of different cultures/religions the possibility of disagreement would be much higher.
Mee - | 11
31 Jan 2011 #60
We live in Poland and have no problem with Poles.... It depends on your attitute, as well.


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