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Poland from a Persian Tourist's Perspective


Seanus 15 | 19,706
14 Mar 2010 #151
Well, he is but one individual who has no prominent position to implement any significant changes. He just wants to stay 'onside' and not ruffle any feathers.

I hope people listen to Panetta of the CIA. Iran must not be attacked, it would be a grave mistake. George knows that.
yehudi 1 | 432
14 Mar 2010 #152
I'm against Zionism and the policy for establishing a national homeland for Jews.

There you've gotten to the crux of the issue. If you think every nation in the world has a right to self-determination except for the Jews that would explain why you so easily accept the most outrageous assumptions about Israel.

But there is an israeli expression, adapted from Arabic, that says "the dogs will bark but the caravan will keep moving". You keep on with your ignorance. You keep barking. Meanwhile, we'll keep building our country. The best revenge is living a good life. And that we will do.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
14 Mar 2010 #153
The best revenge for what?
purplewolf 2 | 46
14 Mar 2010 #154
The best revenge is living a good life. And that we will do.

Shalom, chaver.. First of all, take a huge load of shiit on these anti-israeli morons.. They are not worth your energy.. Israel became a world-wide scapegoat just because you dare to live in your way and preserve your national interest... Bashing you became trendy... It aches them hard, oh my, how much it hurts them, don't even try to imagine!... No wonder they hate you, they became zluts of islam quite long ago: France, Germany, UK, that's a fuuckin' shariat-in-crowd today..

If somebody asked me about antizionism, i'd say only few words: "postcommies and leftists", "muslims", "red and ultraorthodox jews", "neonazis".. Whether you add "few polish idiots" to the bunch is completely up to you...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
14 Mar 2010 #155
Who are you referring to here, purplewolf? I am none of the above, none! I defend Israelis right to exist to the max. They have suffered terribly but that doesn't mean that they can do what they are doing in the Occupied Territories. I dislike the IDF, simple?

Everyone is losing patience, even Clinton and Axelrod, news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8566992.stm

Finkelstein, himself a Jew, showed the illegality of settlements clearly in discussing the judgement of the ICJ of 2004. Rabbis are against it too. They take away the title deeds to the property of Palestinians and bulldoze on a regular basis in places like Rafah.
purplewolf 2 | 46
14 Mar 2010 #156
I dislike the IDF, simple?

You like Israel, you dislike the IDF... uhm... yeah, it's surely "simple" but i don't get it anyway...

Finkelstein, himself a Jew, showed the illegality of settlements clearly in discussing the judgement of the ICJ of 2004.

That is why i dislike Jews and... i like Israelis... Simple?...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
14 Mar 2010 #157
I said that I'd defend Israel's right to exist, nothing about liking. Just not at the expense of others and not when Likud does what it likes.

There are countless numbers of videos on IDF brutality. OCL was a classic display of the disproportionate use of force. Ask BB about it too.

Why do you dislike Jews? That's wholly irrational, singling out a whole race. So you think that Israelis are wholly separate? Where's your head at?
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
14 Mar 2010 #158
But there is an israeli expression, adapted from Arabic, that says "the dogs will bark but the caravan will keep moving". You keep on with your ignorance. You keep barking. Meanwhile, we'll keep building our country. The best revenge is living a good life. And that we will do.

Well I wouldn't be against it if you guys could figure out how to do it right but obviously with the situation the state of Israel is in today just shows what a massive failure it has been. The Nazi's build an empire on spilled Jewish blood and now you're building a Zionist empire on spilled Palestinian blood with tactics right out of the Nazi handbook.

The best revenge? What revenge? Revenge for what the Nazi's and Europeans did to your people? Why should the Arabs suffer for someone else's mistakes? How many Palestinian lives will it cost to finish building your country? How much spilled Palestinian blood is needed?

What you call "outrageous assumptions" the rest of the world calls reality. This isn't 100 years ago, these days we have video cameras, pictures, the internet etc. As Seanus demonstrated, within seconds you can pull up videos of IDF soldiers abusing Palestinians just because they can. Just because they're Arabs.. Or barking "dogs" as you so racistly put it.

As for "living a good life".. I don't know whether to laugh or cry? An average salary of $28 Thousand USD isn't exactly the good life. Specially when most of the wealth comes from foreign western nations who support the genocide of the Palestinians just so they can create chaos in the Middle East, divide people and loot their natural resources.

Israel is nothing without the Zionist ultra conservative Christians running the U.S and if you haven't noticed the U.S is pretty much bankrupt and well on it's way turning into a 3rd world nation.

You guys or living on borrowed time...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
14 Mar 2010 #159
BB actually had a thread on this. Where is he? BB, where are you? He has a thread on the CIA, yes, CIA stating that Israel is not going to be in existence for much longer. 2035 or sth like that I believe. Put CIA and Israel into the Search box and it'll come up. Some good debate there. BB is a German guy btw. Very smart!!

I think yehudi meant revenge for denying their existence.

youtube.com/watch?v=ALbzwAkfdUg, freeze it at 1.30 and read their messages. It really says sth.
yehudi 1 | 432
15 Mar 2010 #160
The best revenge? What revenge? Revenge for what the Nazi's and Europeans did to your people?

No. Revenge against idiots like you who would like to see us fail.

How many Palestinian lives will it cost to finish building your country?

Actually it's the other way around: Israeli prosperity benefits palestinians, increasing jobs. Palestinian prosperity is good for us too because it tends to encourage moderation. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

Or barking "dogs" as you so racistly put it.

The barking dogs reference was not about Arabs but about people like you who keep criticizing while we build the country. Dogs can come from any race.
purplewolf 2 | 46
15 Mar 2010 #161
CIA stating that Israel is not going to be in existence for much longer.

CIA helps to destroy Israel in near future?.. Everything's possible with Obanana on the board..
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Mar 2010 #162
Well, relations between the US-Israel are said to have hit a 35-year low. I hope America aren't gonna play the 'we are Muslim-friendly card, we will stand up to Israel'. Anyone could see through that and also fathom that relations are not that strained. If they were, they'd insist on the full implementation of the ICJ's judgement of 2004 and really stoke up the fire but that won't happen.

As Norman Finkelstein said ad nauseam 'the problem just isn't that complicated'. They are making it out to be that a magical solution has been brewing for x number of years and some genius will finally implement it. All rhetoric!

Time to step in and protect the Palestinian people from brutal assaults. They did it in Kosovo so why not in areas like Rafah? It's like a concentration camp and that can't go on.
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
15 Mar 2010 #163
Israeli prosperity? You've got to be joking. Palestinians were doing just fine on their own before you guys came along and caused havoc. Back in the old days Jews were welcomed but after a while you guys would systematically keep Palestinians out of the job market by not hiring them which lead to hostility and is one of the main reasons that everything escalated to the levels it did when Jews first started coming in mass numbers. As I mentioned earlier, you along with many many other Israelis tend to have a very short term memory that only goes back a few years... Look at how much the Palestinians have lost over the last 60 years, they certainly haven't gained one bit.

Time to step in and protect the Palestinian people from brutal assaults. They did it in Kosovo so why not in areas like Rafah? It's like a concentration camp and that can't go on.

Because Arab blood is the cheapest there is. I lost count of how many 9/11 ceremonies people held for the 3000 NYC victims but have anyone done just as much for the 600.000 dead Iraqis? No.. How about the 1800 Hurricane Katrina victims where a majority of them were black, did anyone care? No.. People talk more vividly about dessert over dinner than the 200 Iraqis announced dead on their TV running in the background.

As long as it's Arab blood and as long as it's not spilled in their backyards then nobody will care. As the Israeli poster so finely put it, the caravan will keep moving................................................Over dead Palestinian bodies.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
15 Mar 2010 #164
600,000? Even that's too low I'd say. Simply put, sb has to restore the teeth of international law so that it bites and isn't treated with impunity. Richard Goldstone was an independent investigator whose allegations of phosphorus use were backed up by the accounts of IDF soldiers. Corroboration is there. Hamas and Likud are duty bound to conduct their own investigations but it's a moot point if they will.

Anyway, back to Poland as there are other threads for this. How long were you in Poland for again, Darius? Poland really grants a lot of freedoms to certain groups, esp Vietnamese. You can feel relatively free here, don't you think?
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
16 Mar 2010 #165
Anyway, back to Poland as there are other threads for this. How long were you in Poland for again, Darius? Poland really grants a lot of freedoms to certain groups, esp Vietnamese. You can feel relatively free here, don't you think?

Been there for two weeks, on two different trips, one week each. I can't really say whether or not the country grants freedoms to minorities as I was only a tourist there. I wouldn't say it's as free as other countries but it all depends on who you are. Personally I wouldn't move there as the salaries tend to be bad compared to other EU countries, I know a guy who works there and he was only making 5500 zloty a month which isn't much really, so he was somewhat limited. It all depends on how much dough you make, the more you make the more freedom you have to shut out all the bad things around you. If I was rich and didn't have to work I would move there instantly to live like a king for dirt cheap.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
16 Mar 2010 #166
Only 5500PLN a month, what? That's what I'll get gross this month and it's not bad at all. Trust me, I've lived here long enough to know that it's more than enough if you don't have kids and your own car.
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
16 Mar 2010 #167
and your own car.

I can't live without a car :D what my friend makes full-time I can make the same amount doing a part time job in London and I could make over twice as much if I worked full time. My main concern wouldn't be the low salary if I was someone moving there, it would probably be the high rent prices in Warsaw, bad public transportation, awful public universities, and soviet-like healthcare... Food quality and prices seemed to be better/cheaper so that's a plus. I ordered quite a few family buckets from KFC to Hilton where I was staying, couldn't believe how cheap it was compared to the amount of food you get

No offence on any of those points but Western Europe is a tad bit more advanced on most of those points. btw are you native or an expat?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
16 Mar 2010 #168
I'm an expat from Scotland. Quite a few native speakers don't make 5500PLN here, trust me. Soviet health care? I don't have much experience of the system as, unlike many here, I'm not a self piteous hypochondriac who gets an L4 on a whim. I imagine the healthcare level to be high enough.

Awful public universities? Although I don't rate their education as highly as they rate it based on what I know, they still have some quality places. Here and in Scotland, they dish out free education so you can't expect Yale and Cambridge level education.
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
17 Mar 2010 #169
Sure 5500 might be high enough but it's a bad wage compared to other places in Europe, things didn't seem to be that much cheaper in Poland than elsewhere so people must be living less extravagant lives. Healthcare is bad trust me, I know quite a few dentists who run clinics of their own and they have so many horror stories of westerners who go to Poland for cheap dental work, and end up paying a British dentist to fix what the polish doctor messed up.

These aren't isolated incidents and it happens in the polish medical business way too often. I knew a swedish guy who needed surgery on his eye, I don't know the specifics of it but out of all the surgeons available he got the only polish one working at the hospital, after the surgery he went blind on his eye. Later I asked a surgeon I knew who worked there and he said that the polish surgeon had a less decent reputation and that he was unexperienced. Point is they simply don't receive the quality of education and training that you get elsewhere... This seems to be common to most of the ex-soviet nations.

Mediocre doctors teaching students will lead to disaster and it's clearly showing. The bad education along with the horrible wages is sadly the combination that's causing all of this.

Of course it's all relative but it depends on what you're used to and what standards you can accept. A working class American would probably pick the flawed polish doctor over their own if they could save money while a British person would pick the NHS doctor over the polish doctor. I'm not saying they're all bad but too many are and if you wanna get treated by the good polish docs you're going to have to pay for it as they tend to stick to the private clinics.

I visited the University of Warsaw while I was there and it wasn't anything special, nice buildings but the level of education seemed like your average public school. The professors weren't that good compared to the ones you might find at the higher end private institutions and that's what matters the most. It doesn't matter how grand the building is or how advanced their equipment is. If a professor with the intelligence of an educated chimpanzee is teaching the students they will most likely end up doing worse on average than their colleagues at a University with world class tutors.

Personally i couldn't live with it but if the polish can then that's up to them.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
17 Mar 2010 #170
The professors weren't that good compared to the ones you might find at the higher end private institutions and that's what matters the most.

Now I know you're definitely posting to stir up trouble - because if you actually had visited Poland, you'd know that the vast majority of private university professors, if not all of them, are in fact working at the public ones as well.

Perhaps try and be a little more accurate in your tales?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
17 Mar 2010 #171
Plus, the level of dentistry could be said to be higher in Poland than in the UK. They train for the same length of time but it has been said by many that the position above is a true one. My ex was a dentist and she lives in the UK now. She'd be well-positioned to comment.
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
18 Mar 2010 #172
Perhaps try and be a little more accurate in your tales?

I'm talking about professors at higher end private institutions in other countries. I'm aware that Poland has a handful of fee-based universities but I doubt they're comparable to world class institutions like Harvard, Yale, Oxbridge etc. Not all average private institutions are good and some of them actually have a bad reputation along with the professors. And what do you mean with "if you actually had visited Poland" ??? I was there on a study/work related trip for freck sake, I was on the campus.. I think it's you who's trying to stir up trouble.

I think you should look up the definition of high-end.. I was comparing them to $40K+/yr institutions which tend to be much better than public institutions in my opinion.. Mark my words.. IN MY OPINION. I've gone to public schools and and expensive private institutions and personally I think the level of education is much better at the place I'm at right now and all my peers express the same opinion. The level of education and support you receive is just more well rounded.

As I said. And I'll type it again just for you as you've failed to read my entire post except snippets.... it's all relative and it depends on what you're used to and what standards you can accept. There are universities in England, Poland and elsewhere that are so bad that I would rather not go there at all.

Plus, the level of dentistry could be said to be higher in Poland than in the UK. They train for the same length of time but it has been said by many that the position above is a true one.

As I said, Not all dentists are bad in Poland but there's farther between the good ones compared to for example Western Europe in general. Currently Poland isn't doing so well on the Oral Health statistics but I'm aware that they're trying to improve that in Warsaw and elsewhere.. I read this somewhere a while ago so it might have changed or improved slightly. My main point was that even though they trained for the same amount of years their training is still inferior to the training they could have received elsewhere in countries with more developed healthcare. In the end it's the consumers who suffer the consequences and it's showing in the statistics.
Torq 26 | 2,371
18 Mar 2010 #173
If a professor with the intelligence of an educated chimpanzee is teaching the students

Could you please tell us the name of the University of Warsaw professor who has
"the intelligence of an educated chimpanzee"?

If you do this, I will be able to check the mentioned professor, his scientific career
and publications and talk to some of the UW students to establish if he indeed
has "the intelligence of an educated chimpanzee" :-)

in my opinion.. Mark my words.. IN MY OPINION

In my opinion... mark my words... IN MY OPINION you are not a Persian tourist
but a troll and a sh*it stirrer (I had my doubts before but with every post you
make I am more and more sure of that).
1jola 14 | 1,879
18 Mar 2010 #174
I think he made an unsucessful attempt at studying at Warsaw University, and now he declares it is not Harvard and the profs are not to his standards, and he requires world class ones. His second-hand dentist stories are even worse.

Another accute observer passing through after his two-week stint in Poland. He did enjoy many buckets of KFC here, so at least he liked our cuisine.
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
18 Mar 2010 #175
Could you please tell us the name of the University of Warsaw professor who has
"the intelligence of an educated chimpanzee"?

Wow you people take critique badly, I never said that specifically teachers at the university of Warsaw were chimpanzee's.. It was just a general example. Take the university of Greenwich in england for example, amazing building but that's pretty much it, the rest is horrible teachers and a bad reputation. All I was trying to say was that I'm not in favor of keeping mediocre institutions alive.. Warsaw University is average.. Not good but not bad either and if you guys can't deal with someone saying it out loud then that's you're problem. Go check for yourself how it ranks compared to other institutions in the EU.

I think he made an unsucessful attempt at studying at Warsaw University, and now he declares it is not Harvard and the profs are not to his standards, and he requires world class ones.

As I said I'm already attending a well respectable institution in the UK as for the place not being up to my standards.. Well yes that's true and I'm not ashamed to say that I'd like to attend a well rounded institution. Does that mean that the place is bad? No.. standards are relative and what I find unacceptable someone like you might find acceptable... I can't see how this is so offending?

His second-hand dentist stories are even worse

You don't have to take my word for it go to the World Health Organization website and look up Poland's Oral Health compared to neighboring countries. Or just ask any German, British Danish or Swedish dentist and they'll tell you how many patients they work on who've had bad dental work done abroad for a fractions of the price.

He did enjoy many buckets of KFC here, so at least he liked our cuisine.

That was actually an example and compliment.. I couldn't believe how cheap food compared to other places. Supermarket prices were cheap too and the selection of products was good.

IN MY OPINION you are not a Persian tourist
but a troll and a sh*it stirrer

I don't know what to say to this one.. You come in with guns blazing and misinterpreted my post and thought I was comparing all Warsaw professors to chimps which wasn't the case as explained above. The only troll here is you people who idle sit by and jump at everything that you don't agree with armed with personal insults. And as for your denial of my heritage I just laugh.. I don't know what you want me to say? Want a DNA test?

As for the rest...

I was just answering Seanus about what kind of freedoms Poland has and pointed out specific points why I couldn't live there which is mainly salary, education and health. Now if you nationalist supremacists can't handle healthy debate and simple critique then that's not my problem. I don't think I'm out of line with my opinions, Poland isn't as developed as it's neighboring countries to the west and the country lacks behind on development in some crucial areas. You've all seen the overwhelming number of people who've left Poland since they got entry to the EU in 2004. Now does this mean that it's a bad country? No.. It has a lot of good qualities and I've pointed out some of them in my earlier posts.

Just because I point out it's less attractive aspects and why the place isn't for me, doesn't mean that it's a bad place in general..
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
18 Mar 2010 #176
Or just ask any German, British Danish or Swedish dentist and they'll tell you how many patients they work on who've had bad dental work done abroad for a fractions of the price.

You can say the same for any private dentist, there are horror stories in the UK too, usually work done by some immigrant who cant even fill a tooth let alone put a bridge in (I dont mean Polish dentists working here either, my mums dentist (god rest his soul) was excellent!)

There are universities in England

Which are highly ranked, usually 3rd world immigrants dont get into them - they usually attend bogus colleges or did shall I say, we've managed to close most of them.

The Nazi's build an empire on spilled Jewish blood and now you're building a Zionist empire on spilled Palestinian blood with tactics right out of the Nazi handbook.

The nazis didnt build any empire, they tried and failed..
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #177
You don't have to take my word for it go to the World Health Organization website and look up Poland's Oral Health compared to neighboring countries. Or just ask any German, British Danish or Swedish dentist and they'll tell you how many patients they work on who've had bad dental work done abroad for a fractions of the price.

Just on this...I'm quite happy with my dentist here. Thankfully I haven't had any major medical problems, but my provider has new equipment and they come across as fully competent anytime I have questions.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,444
18 Mar 2010 #178
I cannot help but notice that Darius is a tad condescending in his posts. One can be critical without offending anybody. Just my 2 cents.

Sure Poland is not as developed as other countries.
Sure Israel is doing what it is doing.
Sure Polish dentists (all of them) had less access to world wide standards.
Sure you have been a victim of racism, so were some Poles, some Jews, and other nationalities posting on this forum.

I know that it will sound like a cliche, but what will not kill you will make you stronger.
We all have a choice of choosing between remaining a bitter and critical victim,or we can move on and become better humans. The choice is really ours.

I wish you to finish you studies and have a happy life.
OP DariusTraveller 1 | 59
18 Mar 2010 #179
You can say the same for any private dentist, there are horror stories in the UK too, usually work done by some immigrant who cant even fill a tooth let alone put a bridge in (I dont mean Polish dentists working here either, my mums dentist (god rest his soul) was excellent!)

Well I was only talking about Dentists who graduate in the UK vs Polish graduates. Now when you're comparing graduates from a third country it becomes a different discussion. Of course there's bad apples everywhere but you're more likely to run into bad ones in PL than in Western Europe. All I'm saying is that there's a lot of travel agencies who sponsor trips to Poland where you can get cheap dental work done but a lot of these people later run into complications because of flawed work.

Just on this...I'm quite happy with my dentist here

No doubt, there are good reputable clinics available. But it's still undeniable that the general Oral Health of Poland is lacking behind.

The nazis didnt build any empire, they tried and failed..

Ok.. Correction: "The Nazi's tried to build an empire on spilled Jewish blood and now you're trying to build a Zionist empire on spilled Palestinian blood with tactics right out of the Nazi handbook."

My point was that loads of people died in Europe and the same is happening in Palestine today.

I cannot help but notice that Darius is a tad condescending in his posts. One can be critical without offending anybody. Just my 2 cents.

My posts might seem a bit condescension but that's completely unintentional. Anyways some of the people on here take some of my comments way too personal.
Torq 26 | 2,371
18 Mar 2010 #180
Wow you people take critique badly

It's not about us taking critique badly. It's about you - a 21 year old student,
talking about university professors in Poland (or any other country) having
"the intelligence of educated chimpanzees".

I would really be curious to hear the names of those professors (no matter if
they're from Warsaw University or from any other university in Europe).
It takes a considerable amount of work and intellectual effort to become a professor
of any university and the fact that you, as a 21 year old student, call some of those
people chimpanzees tells us a lot about you.

It tells us that you are a presumptuous, snot-nosed, self-important pri*ck - character
features very characteristic for an Internet troll.

The only troll here is you people who idle sit by and jump at everything that you don't agree with armed with personal insults.

Don't treat what I write as insults. Think of it as an objective diagnosis from a stranger
who doesn't know you personally and is basing his opinion only on the messages you post
on this board.

It is perfectly possible that in real life you are a nice, well-mannered person.
On this forum, however, you come across as a complete and utter twat, most
probably a troll.


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