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Various education and school issues in Poland. Opinions, stories, controversies.


pawian 151 | 7,977    
18 Mar 2019  #1
Dear guys, so far I have been having fun in the PF but now the matter is extremely important. I am going to be dead serious and talk about education in Poland, and you probably know the Polish saying: As you educate the youth today, such Polands will be in future.

According to all indications, teachers` strike is going to take place in mid April. If the PiS government doesn` t fulfill the demands formulated by the two main trade unions, the protest might affect the final exams in elementary and junior high schools.

The trade unions` main demand is more money for teachers - additional 1000 PLN, about 300$, monthly. On average, novice teachers get less than novice policemen or soldiers, also it is suggested that cashiers in chain stores earn more. How do teachers justify their demands? The main reason, apart from low pay, is that the job is becoming more and more stressful, not only in result of decreasing discipline and students` low devotion to books, but also due to the controvercial reform which abolished junior high schools 3 years ago. That is why, this year two seperate grades are going to compete for places in high schools - 15- year -olds from reformed elementary schools and 16 -year-olds from old closed down junior high schools. It means twice as many as previously. High schools - lyceums, vocational schools and technical colleges are not made of rubber, how are they going to accommodate so many students? Even worse, experts predict that many students will be turned down by the schools they want to attend and will have to go to ones with free places, even vocational ones.

Additionally, the reform has caused incredible chaos in teachers` daily work because new curriculums are very tight and teachers are not able to fulfill the expectations of the Education Ministry. To be on time, they assign students giant amounts of homework which always causes giant frustration not only in students but also their parents who, in Polish case, often help their kids with schoolwork. Why the inability to fulfill expectations? The primary reason is that the material from previous 3- year junior high school was comprised into 2 last years of elementary school. Can you believe it? One year less than before. How crazy or stupid might one be to have concocted such absurdity?

Teachers have had enough and they are voting with their feet, quitting schools and looking for better paid positions, in banking, offices or corporations. There are fewer and fewer undergraduates who are willing to work in schools. E..g, I haven`t had a trainee teacher for about 3 years now, while in previous years there had been 2 a year on average. This means hardly anybody is interested in becoming a teacher. When the old teachers die out, who is going to work in schools? Cyborgs? Some subjects, like Polish class, should be taught by humans who feel all the intricacies in the attitudes of Kordian, Gustaw, Zbyszko and other characters from Polish literature. Even immigrants are reluctant to become teachers in Poland, I remember working with two female teachers of English, one Russian and another Ukrainian, but that was about 15-10 years ago.

Naturally, many people are critical of the strike. They claim that teachers have always complained about salaries and are insatiable. They officially do 18 classes a week to have a full time post (the least of all European countries). What is more, they enjoy not only 2 full months of summer holidays but schools also break up for Christmas, Easter and winter holidays. Additionally, teachers get various bonuses and benefits, e.g., 13th salary (whoopie, it always comes in March) Finally, if they don`t like their job, they can always change it and become chain store workers where allegedly they will earn more.

On Wednesday a referendum whether to take strike action is going to be held in our school. I still don`t know how I will vote. On the one hand, I will happily show PiS what I think of their moronic reforms. Besides, those bastards are giving away benefits like crazy, so why shouldn`t teachers take advantage of them, too?

On the other hand, strike might affect students taking exams. Also, I will lose a few hundred $ if the strike continues for a week or longer (nearly double full time in a state school, 34 classes per week). Eventually, our head teacher has had issues with the local council, they would like to have him dismissed and they might arrange it if the strike takes place, accusing him of losing control.
lul bul - | 50    
19 Mar 2019  #2
Honestly,Too long a fuging post to be read thoroughlyR E P O S T!
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,088    
19 Mar 2019  #3
You shouldn't of chosen such a ****** low wage job....

Even immigrants are reluctant to become teachers in Poland

You must not be familiar with our other LBHers
Ironside 47 | 9,499    
19 Mar 2019  #4
teachers` strike

Its political. Partisan BS.

novice teachers g

They get crap because such is the system. This cast system should be abolished.
Teachers or any government employees shouldn't have any unions that is a joke.

Anyway don't even start pawian everything in Poland would have to be changed, adjusted and reformed or what have you. It should start with the constitution because everything in Poland is post-communist crap. Including people they should be kicked out from key areas that are vital to properly functioning society and a state.
johnny reb 16 | 3,131    
19 Mar 2019  #5
You shouldn't of chosen such a ****** low wage job....

Therapy is where the money is.
"One recent survey shows 3 OUT OF every 5 MILLENNIALS (58%)...regard their lives more stressful now than EVER Before !"
The poor little Snowflakes graduate from their Politically Correct Safe Rooms without any exposure to REALITY what so ever.
They have always deserved a participation trophy stress free.
In Poland Daddy is required to pay their way until they are 27 years old isn't it ?
Slow Wi-Fi is more stressful then slow traffic to them.
A good therapist charges ten times what a teacher gets just to listen to these useless cry babies and pamper their hurt feels and stress.

And it is only getting worse making the demands for therapists even greater.
Glad I could help you out Pawian.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,088    
19 Mar 2019  #6
"One recent survey shows 3 OUT OF every 5 MILLENNIALS (58%)...regard their lives more stressful now than EVER Before !"

Wait... more stressful than ever before? I guess by 'ever before' they're probably referring to grade school, childhood, etc. Shiiiit man i was mixing cement, painting fences and destroying hornet nests at before my balls even dropped. I got a gun for christmas at 12. No bullshit either.

That's because they don't know how to live without a cell phone or make money without clocking into some office. Of course they're going to be miserable. Plus every step of the way something that they previously considered normal suddenly becomes ' a symbol of white supremacy, patriarchy, or whatever jewspeak term is used next.'

And it is only getting worse making the demands for therapists even greater.

That and drugs. That's why so many white men are either addicted or suicidal or both. Even some dude who was way high up in government just committed suicide and he was only in his 50's... I've honestly lost count of the friends that I've lost to drugs, violence, suicide... only 1 to a car accident.. it's pretty sad.,.

This is the best way to stop being depressed - stopped being so damn brainwashed by (((media))) and giving a **** about what everything thinks about you. It's so liberating when you genuinely don't need to impress any of your friends or co-workers or some gold digging thot etc. The only person you're hurting is yourself.

Get all that bullshit media out of your body - have a friend help if need be.
OP pawian 151 | 7,977    
19 Mar 2019  #7
Honestly,Too long a fuging post to be read thoroughlyR E P O S T!

Yes, I realise some members might have a problem. But I couldn`t make it shorter, the situation has to be explained thoroughly. Yes, let`s be honest, it was designed for people really interested in the issue.

You shouldn't of chosen such a ****** low wage job....

Actually, being an old and experienced teacher of English, I don`t complain about my own earnings. I wrote about teachers in general, especially those who begin their career.

Teachers or any government employees shouldn't have any unions that is a joke.

That`s interesting. Do you know many ciivilised democratic countries where such unions are prohibited ?
10iwonka10 - | 383    
19 Mar 2019  #8
Teachers have had enough and they are voting with their feet

Good luck with it - It can be shock to their system to move from 20 to 40 hours a week plus no school holidays just normal standard holidays as for everyone.
Shitonya Brits    
19 Mar 2019  #9
Honestly,Too long a fuging post

Indeed, what a rant!

regard their lives more stressful now than EVER Before

This thread should have been given the title "The Communist Manifesto on Securing Yet Even More Privileges for Professional Students".

Up the Revolution! :)

Still, it is so amusing to watch this professional student weep in his Ivory Tower.

Life is so unfair isn't it?

Behold the OP, aping the lifestyle of his Russian commie boss counterparts from way back in his PRL heyday.

He's got the big city apartment!

And he's got the nice dacha in the countryside!

And he goes to all-expenses paid trips to mountain spa retreats and premier shopping destinations across Europe (and during regular work days of course because his weekends are his own, he's earned them after all)!

So naturally he need even more money and more time off!

Oh, but it's for "the other teachers"!

Yeah, right!

Pigs at the trough, my friends. Pigs at the trough. :)
jon357 64 | 14,382    
19 Mar 2019  #10
With overtime, it's possible to earn more flipping burgers. Good look to them, and good that they're all taking part in the action; United they Stand, Divided they Fall.
johnny reb 16 | 3,131    
19 Mar 2019  #11
United they Stand,

Be careful and don't let what happened in the U.S.A. happen in Poland.
The teachers union has become the strongest union in the country.
So strong you can't even fire a useless teacher.
Their benefit packages have become absolutely ridiculous.

They officially do 18 classes a week to have a full time post

WoW - Three and one half back breaking classes a day !
And with weeks of holiday vacation off, summers off, personal days off, holidays off, seminars off, jerk off.........
Add up the actual hours these teachers work and divide their salaries into that.
AND then the benefit packages for life that drip with greed.
They have 100% free health care, dental care, prescription care, ridiculous pensions for life, 401k packages after retirement too.

Good look to them

Be careful what you wish for as once you get a worthless teacher in that union it is impossible to get rid of them.
The majority of the Liberal over paid teachers in the U.S.A. are worthless and not worth their weight in salt thanks to the teachers union.

Hope Poland takes a hard look at our huge mistake.
cms neuf - | 767    
19 Mar 2019  #12
Who would have thought it ?

Some uneducated people dont value educators

Cue some nonsense about thr Ivy League
johnny reb 16 | 3,131    
19 Mar 2019  #13
People that can do it, do it.
People who can't do it, teach it.
Educated people value educators, it's the to many worthless incompetent Liberal educators that I am talking about here.
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,544    
19 Mar 2019  #14
@pawian
It is sad to hear that teacher earn so little in Poland. Generally speaking teachers aren't that well paid. I hope to move to Poland one day and work as a teacher, but the low salaries might mean I will have to save up more before moving.

How do you view private vs state schools?
Wage/pupils/environment?
Ironside 47 | 9,499    
19 Mar 2019  #15
hear that teacher earn so little in Poland.

He talking BS. Sure a novice earns very little. There three or four tiers for teachers in Poland. Those on the last tier earn about 5000 to 6000 ZL that is considered a good salary in Poland. Plus they get it for about 20 + hours per week, paid medical care, three months fully paid holiday.

Do you know what is hypocrisy in this strike? They ask for increase in salary for novices but they all will get more money even those on a top tier. A basic pay of MP's in Poland is about 10 000 to 12 000 zl if I'm not mistaken.

Remember that nurses are getting about 3000zl. Plus some doctors are not getting that much just for few contracted hours like about 7000, After they put more hours in they can easily earn about 12 0000 to 15 000. (theirs some that earn 20 000 or 50 000 but that different story, talking about an average doc there)

So sure by all means teachers, novice teachers should get more, let abolish this cast system and let them work like 40 hours per week, and pay them by their performance.
johnny reb 16 | 3,131    
19 Mar 2019  #16
It's not just the teachers in Poland that are under paid.

Some uneducated people dont value educators

That's not what I said nor was my point.
What I said was:

The teachers union has become the strongest union in the country. So strong you can't even fire a useless teacher.

Having such a strong union eliminates the culling the dead weight teachers.
I continued with my point as to not let this happen in Poland.
Good example of dead weight teachers are the not so brilliant ones that post anti-Christian and their Socialist Commie propaganda here all day.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
19 Mar 2019  #17
The teachers union has become the strongest union in the country.

Good!

Some uneducated people dont value educators

Pretty well.

Not the easiest job, sometimes rewarding, though always hard work. I wouldn't like to be one myself nowadays. Teaching Special Ed in a locked Secure Unit back in the day was hard enough.
cms neuf - | 767    
19 Mar 2019  #18
Johnny your quote about people whi cant do becoming teachers is absolute nonsense - I have had plenty of dedicated and wise teachers who I am sure would prosper in professional life, or the military, or whatever calling they wanted to follow

There are some people who value bringing on kids and contributing to society more than money. It is far from an easy job
Lyzko 20 | 6,177    
19 Mar 2019  #19
Can't speak for Poland, although I'd imagine it does, but typically the US by sharp contrast, has always maintained a decidedly anti-intellectual, anti-academic, in the end, anti-education, streak, save perhaps for all but those most nuts-and-bolts trade schools which have usually been strictly "for profit" institutions, thus heavily susceptible to financial scams!

I ought to know, I worked for one:-)
OP pawian 151 | 7,977    
19 Mar 2019  #20
He's got the big city apartment!

Actually, we have 2.5 big city apartments. Is it illegal? :)

It can be shock to their system to move from 20 to 40 hours a week plus no school holidays just normal standard holidays as for everyone

WoW - Three and one half back breaking classes a day !

Yes, but remember it is not only 18 classes per week. Teachers have to prepare and mark tests and do other paperwork like reports etc, During breaks they monitor corridors,

they also take part in conferences, go on school trips which may even last for days. In summer months they help their head teachers to prepare school for the next school year.

Those on the last tier earn about 5000 to 6000 ZL that is considered a good salary in Poland.

How many of them get such salaries? 10% or less? PiS Minister of Education also claims that an average teacher earns so much. But enraged teachers started the "show your slip to the Minister" campaign, Their earnings are much lower, in fact.





jon357 64 | 14,382    
19 Mar 2019  #21
Actually, we have 2.5 big city apartments. Is it illegal? :)

Yes. Remember if you do a difficult and stressful job which contributes to society, makes people's lives better and helps to mke the world a better place, it's a strict legal requirement that you live in abject poverty with no possessions except a pair of sandals and a (second-hand) pot to p1ss in.

God forbid that Nurses, Teachers, Care Workers, Firemen etc could ever earn a good salary. What a shocking thought! We leave those riches to people who really deserve it like personal injury lawyers, football agents and reality-show 'stars'.
OP pawian 151 | 7,977    
20 Mar 2019  #22
Be careful and don't let what happened in the U.S.A. happen in Poland.

Actually, this has been a rule in Poland since 1982 when Teacher`s Charter was introduced. According to it, a teacher can be dismissed only after being convicted for an intentional transgression of law.

I have always considered it a harmful regulation because it does protect lousy teachers from being fired for complete incompetence. Therefore, many people believe that teachers are a special caste that enjoys priviliges unknown to other employees.

pay them by their performance.

Agreed. I am ready to take it. The problem is who and how is going to measure the quality of teaching? Students? Parents? Head teachers? Local councils? Local education boards? All of them? Easier said than done.

Currently, the promotion system for teachers is that starting from the freshman level you will need about 15 years to reach the best paid level of a certified teacher.
Chemikiem 5 | 1,480    
21 Mar 2019  #23
I am ready to take it.

Be careful what you wish for! Performance related pay has been standard in the UK since 2014, and it's not popular.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
21 Mar 2019  #24
It's a minefield. Especially without proper weighting for the type of school, the particular conditions of the area it's in and a few other factors.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,655    
21 Mar 2019  #25
The problem is who and how is going to measure the quality of teaching?

It's nearly impossible to do properly, and it's an awful idea to rely on parent/pupil feedback. It's also very difficult to do it fairly across subjects, because something like English takes way more prep than PE.
cms neuf - | 767    
21 Mar 2019  #26
Where it has been applies it has typically led to a large number of teachers leaving the profession - especially in maths and science whi feel undervalued and insulted, The result that the remaining teachers have far more negotiating power and end ip eith higher salariea

So ironically a perfect demonstration of the free market !
10iwonka10 - | 383    
21 Mar 2019  #27
Not quite- people with more drive, ambitions left - maybe changed profession or moved to leach in private school. Dead wood is left and wants more money.
jon357 64 | 14,382    
21 Mar 2019  #28
feel undervalued and insulted

Exactly. It means those who can't handle the work go elsewhere, leaving largely the most motivated, dedicated and able. The dead wood are doing other things like pushing paper in an office.
johnny reb 16 | 3,131    
21 Mar 2019  #29
I have some pen pals in Poland that attend universities.
One of the most common complaints I hear about their instructors is that they demand to be treated like little gods.
You dare not to question them or disagree with them without fearing a failing grade.
Is this true that some ego maniac instructors use their authority to bully students in Poland ?
OP pawian 151 | 7,977    
21 Mar 2019  #30
Johnny, anything is possible. Psychopaths can work everywhere, from kindergarten to universities. But judging by my school, they don`t exceed 5% of overall teachers` population. :)

It means those who can't handle the work go elsewhere, leaving largely the most motivated, dedicated and able.

people with more drive, ambitions left - maybe changed profession or moved to leach in private school. Dead wood is left and wants more money.

Out of your two opposing views, most people who deal with the issue here would opt for Iwonka`s opinion. Bad teachers won`t leave schools because it is their last and only chance to make a living. Those talented ones will leave or simply won`t decide to become teachers.

Performance pay
Be careful what you wish for! Performance related pay has been standard in the UK since 2014, and it's not popular

It's a minefield. Especially without proper weighting for the type of school, the particular conditions of the area it's in and a few other factors.

It's nearly impossible to do properly,


Yes, performance pay, mentioned first by Ironside, is a tricky subject. I said I am ready to accept but provided it will fairly take into account all nuances and differences between schools, students, background etc. E.g., it has been proved many times that students in the urban areas are more capable than those in the countryside. If performance pay is construed to deal with such factors efficiently, then I am for.

But I doubt they will ever be able to make it so fair. That is why you are right, it is a stupid idea and I am sceptical. Let me repeat - Easier said than done.


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