Poland's apartment prices continue to fall

Am I misreading you in that the essence of this post suggests that as long as money exchanges hands then exploitation isn't happening?

so you mean to tell me that if you buy something it is exploitation? food, services, homes, transportation, health care, basic needs- everything is reliant upon an exchange of money. You have a job- are you not exploiting your services if you earn an income? This system has been set up since the beginning of time. you don't work for free and you don't live for free- what is the alternative?

I think gas companies, corporations and banks do the exploiting- this I will agree- but I don't think I am exploiting anybody- I don't even own the place yet.

We own a property by the seaside- because we rent to people who take their holidays by your theory we are exploiting them too? sorry, I just don't follow the logic. This is how the world works.

I originally posted the fact that we were looking at buying a bachelor apartment in Powisle and I commented that the prices had not dropped and gave various acceptable reasons and then it snowballed from there. Apparently I was bragging and taking advantage of people and I also was told that the price I want to charge was outrageous- yet I have links that prove otherwise and we have had a comment from a fellow in England who has said his kids pay more.

Sometimes people just feel the need to critique and b*tch- I guess it is a universal thing.

Thats the problem. They would prefer the world works whereby you buy it and give to them, so they can exploit someone else.

ahh actually its only been around for a few thousand years, in time terms it would be a spec of sand in the desert, time is after all eternal.........in theory.

pip youre going to get stick because people are jealous, that is of course if what you are saying is actually true, loads of internet liars around you know. Quite a few on here ive noticed over the years.


More waffle that only YOU seem to know what it actually means.

Sorry. In simpler words. Read Animal Farm.

ok, is there a book, besides Animal Farm- that I can read to get some sort of understanding because I just really can't wrap my head around the concept.

pip
What do you mean by "exploit?"


Maybe this is just as much a reflection of your own thinking, perhaps more so? Some people certainly operate that way (sadly) but there's no reason to assume no one thinks differently.


Do you really think it only comes down to jealousy (or envy)? You're in the real estate business in some form or another, aren't you? If so, wouldn't that create a bit of an information vs. perspective bias? Dismissing it as mere envy seems like an excuse not to give the whole system and how we operate within it any fair criticism (imo).


So what? That is not validation for anything.
That argument could be used for human trafficking, corruption, theft, etc, etc, basically any human related activity; it is about as explanatory as saying "it is what it is."

I think I saw an advert/request for accommodation in Warsaw. It would be interesting to track that person's experiences with renting in Warsaw, it may provide some insight into whether the imminent bust is upon the market....or not.

A book written by a lifelong socialist who fought against Franco.

More waffle


In many cases yes.

Dude, you don't want to know my opinions on the system.

Probably true, but many students are supported by their parents, and obviously they can.


So am I but it's way to the left of mainstream thought. And of course they'll finfdfault with that opinion. So be it.


Exploitation. What world are you living in? A shopkeeper buys something for x zl and sells it to me for y zl. Is this exploitation? In your myopic view, you would probably say yes.

I give up. The content of this thread has become worthless.

Oh, property prices in Gdansk haven't come down much. Certainly not in the Old Town, only in areas where developers outside the area leveraged heavily against future developments to build new ones without having sold their existing ones and got called by their banks for repayment of their original loans. Two of them went bankrupt. Just desserts.

Adios, my contentious amigos.

Yes they have. Reas is showing a 22% fall in Trojmiasto since 2008. Not sure how much of Gdansk's housing stock is in the old town but it cant be more than 5%. Normal Poles have to choose somewhere with parking and access to schools and shopping than somewhere with a 17th century gable and an overpriced restaurant next door.

Yes,it's funny how people are still claiming that prices are not going down. The thing is,some people just don't want to believe in the objective truth.

you are basing your information on a city average. I have never claimed the prices were not dropping. never. In Warsaw the prices have gone from 7000 per m2 to about 4800 m2 in some areas. But what I did post before all the slamming was that some areas in Warsaw and for that matter in any major city in Poland, have not dropped. Old towns, more established areas. Powisle, where we want to buy, is an established area of Warsaw with little space for new development. The fact is that apartments in this area are still expensive- some at 7000, 9000 and even 15000 per m2. I have actually posted links to support this but nobody seems to be interested in facts. just what their opinion is.

There is a waterfront property in Gdansk- scottie could probably give you more info- I forgot the name of it, where the prices are still at 2008 prices and they are selling.

The area in Sopot where my husband is from - a two bedroom apartment goes for just under a million pln.
Sea tower in Gdynia is listed at 2008 prices and there will be a new Ikea development right next to it- curious about those prices.
Try buying in Jurata or Hel- how much do you think prices are up there?

You are making a blanket statement with no facts to back it up.

The book is about communism and how the communist talk the talk while taking over the role of the farmer/slave driver.

My point is, that those who complain about being exploited are really complaining about not being the exploiter.

Dude, I totally am interested in your opinions on the system. Wait, do you mean the real estated system in Poland or in a capitalist market or your opinions on capitalism. I won't be hurt if you're opinions don't match mine, I've read your posts before and don't regret it so what the heck, let's hear it.


A world in which I read your post and responded to the words you wrote. You wrote that money exchanged hands willingly and as a result that is hardly exploitation. Maybe renting out to make a profit isn't exploitation of a limited and basic resource but the fact that money exchanges hands isn't justification imo. If you don't agree then boo hoo for me. If you want to make a point of arguing your viewpoint then I'd like to make some sense of it but simply saying people pay so it's okay doesn't convince me. Sorry you don't like this.

so then what would you do or what is a good system for you?

I live in a university town. Why do you keep making statements trying to make out I'm stupid? I have already provided reasoning as to why I think 2000PLN is excessive but also qualified my statement by saying it is not aimed at you personally. I have seen the links you provided and those are also excessive. Do you want me to provide some of my own so I can say those are excessive too?

In what sense pip?
Are you asking me to design an entire economic mechanism/system in which greed of the individual instead of the majority isn't rewarded?
It takes many people with many viewpoints being honest with one another to entertain doing such a thing.

I think, in many ways, our system is fine (capitalism and democracy) but there is a definite lack of accountability when it comes to our leadership. When the leadership is corrupt then the populace is going to suffer. This leads to shortcomings in society; shortcomings become compounded over time. Examples are all around you.

Some things just shouldn't be tolerated but are. Why?
Maybe one reason is because some people see other people's vulnerability as a means to their own security.
How is it tolerated? As I have observed, it's from the ugly side of capitalism. People know they can take advantage of others if they are financially "bigger" or "more talented."

It's very much like the strongest preying on the weakest. I'm not talking about people growing fruit and charging money for it or someone building a table and selling it or someone cutting peoples hair for money. I'm talking about hording and creating scarcity as a means towards leverage.

Anyhow this off topic (i think) and will get sent to the rubbish bin in short order.

I am just really trying to understand the thought process. I am not talking about big business and the shady dealings mixed in with a little politics topped off with a bias media to ultimately pull the wool over the eyes of the average person.

That is not my world.
Any system has its faults. Theory can't be put forth if it is organized by people. It is human nature to want more.
I am simply trying to figure out what you think would be best because you seem to be quite critical but have offered no solutions. I am trying to understand why owning an income property is such a bad thing.


ok- you think it is excessive--but in Warsaw in Powisle this is the going rate.

It really isn't (at least in my case), but keep writing it enough and I'm sure people will repeat it with the same conviction.

Imagine if everyone started buying up a limited resource. What would that do to the market? I see this market different than I would home electronics, it's somehow more basic but no, I'm not prepared to quantify that. It's a gut feeling and if I find something that makes me change my mind then I will. But a big problem is that someone else will horde property if you don't and for many that's reason enough to do it.

If you don't think like me then fine, I'm not telling you to. However I really would advise against it, most of what I've heard is that the headache isn't worth the eventual financial gains.

No I'm not. I gave a source, a timeline and an exact figure. Of course its based on town averages - to stop the kind of pub arguments you are using.

You have no evidence apart from some anecdotal nonsense about Sea Towers. Those apartments remain unsold - I know because I'm staying in one during the Euro's. They will join their sister white elephants in Orca and Sky Tower Wroclaw and still be on the market in 2015.

I am well aware of the fact they haven't sold- but the price also hasn't dropped.

It is not a pub argument. Fact is not every district in every town/city is seeing price drops.

Much like I said earlier. Any major city like London, Paris, NYC, Vancouver etc etc have areas that no matter how bad the economy is the prices will still remain high.

There's a McDonald's being opened at the foot of the Sky Tower - or so it seems from the signage. And a fast food chicken shop. Class! Not.

Spoke to a female architect on the plane when I was travelling here - she told me the Sky Tower is awful and doesn't fit its surroundings. While that criticism might be a bit harsh, I can't say it's terribly attractive. It depends, aesthetically, very heavily on the rest of Wrocław modernising its architecture. Something that would, in some cases, be a shame and loss of heritage.

As for the property prices here - I see drops but not enough to tempt me when all things are considered. Will continue to rent.


Nope.

I lived on the borders of Hampstead [posh London area, zip code was NW3] in the 1990s.

Let me assure you, in that crash the better streets' properties also dropped, some by 25%. Downmarket a little, and the prices were south by neary a third.

Yes it is.

Prices went down 0.9% april ,
0.5 march
3.1 Jan/Feb

75 % increase on purchases compare to same time period last year, As people were racing to buy, as the Own your own home grant is basically finished from May 1st.

So lets see what happens now .

Got a link?

You should look at Spain

tinsa.es/n-pages/np-files/1/18/ficha_Imie_Abril_2012-.pdf

Prices down 37%. More to come, if devaluation hits it will be 40% overnight.

That fact that Polish prices have gone down on average 1 % each month this year is also significant, considering the huge jump in sales and prices still went down, From May to next May will be interesting with this government grant gone. 1 in 4 availed of it last year, and up to 90 % in Warsaw. Should knock down 20% in next 12 months. Considering they have already in the last year up to Feb 2012 gone down 9.9% Warsaw

25% Poznan
32% Lodz
Krakow 13.6%

I can't get my head around that


Can you give a link for these figures? Krakow prices are going down, its noticeable. But Poznan and Lodz.. Thats an incredible fall.

You should be well on the way to winning your bet.

The fall in Spain was 3-4% in one month.

Milky, check your IM
"Message sending failed. Reason: The maximum number of stored user's messages is reached. You may try to contact this member by email."

SORRY

My mistake

whoops sorry sorry sorry misprint...

Those are from the peak

in last year

lodz 12.1
Krakow 2.6
Poznan 8.3

oberhaus polish apartment price index

Huge jump in sales and prices still went down.

the market is saturated.

huge jump in sales related to final 4 months of "family in their own home' or whatever you call it grant.