75 Years of Israel and the War - part 2

@jon357
Its still a sterile argument. Just as sterile an argument as many Jewish names being place specific but not in the Levant.

It means nothing. and as I said the colonial pattern of land holding is imposed by Europeans on the people from there.

It's not an argument. It's an inconvenient fact.


You mean poor Jewish people, largely in Poland, clubbing together to buy land in their ancestral homeland from the 1860s onwards? Is that colonialism?

Prior to 1920, Gaza was a neglected and opressed part of the Ottoman Empire. That was colonialism.


They were fleeing from Europeans.

lol! You believe it. lol! how cute!
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Not factual. But in any case what difference does it make?
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I would say that differences are striking much more. Germans got a land they could stay on their own, nobody controlled their minute dealing, and connections with the world, and most importantly nobody said hey now get out from Hamburg we like it here now so you clear off! Maybe to Austria, they speak German there too. What is the difference? You could be Austrian really. Nobody 'mowed' Germans after the WWII ended.

@jon357
No John diverting the thread to discussion about Arab naming conventions while ignoring traditional land ownership is sterile and advances nothing.


Thats a very strange thing to ask


Europeans fleeing Europeans, not surprisingly with a European outlook that went back many, many generations.

@Ironside


Allied controle over German lifes was really tight for the first couple of years.


Well, the Germans also did not keep on attacking their neighbours... . Pretty sure we could have kissed Saarbrücken goodbye for good if we had slaughtered a few thousand French civilians again in the early 1950s...

The Palestinians are experiencing what would have happened to Germans if they had not changed their ways.

Yes, and the settlers in Israel traditionally bought it.


Is it though?


What's wrong with that?


This isn't some Jesuitical debating club.

@jon357
The amount of land purchased before 1948 and the Jewish population size in the mandate did not justify the division plan forced through by the US and guilt riddled Europeans. Britain to its credit warned against this plan.

It was Jews who didnt want to live in a unitary state with anyone else they couldnt dominate. What happens now and happened then is the Israeli state steals Palestinian land and allocates it to colonists with many state subsidies not available to the people who had lived there for many generations.


Imposing foreign laws and practices is the very definition of colonialism.

I'm well aware that this is a bulletin board with the purpose of discussing issues relevant to the topic at hand. Introducing an interesting though ultimately sterile theme into the thread advances nothing. Your point about "the Egyptian" is going nowhere as pointed out above.

We call it self-determination and democracy.


It's the size of one's fist that matters. See Iraq and Ukraine. Lucky Israelis and their fist...

@Barney

The comparison with the german "Vertriebenen" is truly striking and absolutely viable, only surely inconvenient for today's Pali-supporter!

Back then there too existed organizations to support and connect the german refugees....the trauma was big and the dream of a return one time in the future was huge.

But as Tacitus already said, there was no support for that....neither from the german leaders, nor from "well meaning" neighbours. Nobody founded and supported and kept alive the resentment, the hate, the grief, the dream....so it died out with the generation who suffered the Flucht and the Vertreibung themselves. The following generations grew already new roots in the new Heimat.

That logical, natural procedure is kept from the Palis....thanks to their "friends and supporter"!

How much land?


As the Ottomans did initially and as the Arabs are attempting to do now. You probably mean imperialism rather than colonialism, however what's so wrong with either?


What you really mean is that you personally disagree with it.

Trying to 'debate' when entirely innocent Israeli
Hostages are being raped and murdered.

Is that a wonder? Jews know what happens with them being a minority....they had 2000 years experience with that!

And you know what would happen in an Israel with an arab majority....under islam rule...don't you.

@Bratwurst Boy


According to their logic, I might be a refugee... Despite the fact that my father was born in my home town. Utterly bizarre if you ask me... . What good may come from this kind of thinking?

My own family stemmed from Breslau....my mother was born on the "trek"....I dunno how they survived but they did, they were later settled in East-Berlin.

The UN hands down the refugee status to the descendants...at least for the Palis. Maybe I should look into possible claims to get something back? :)

I wonder what the Poles now living in Breslau would think of that....after having rebuild the land and the town....some of them even being refugees from further East themselves....

Imagine you'd start shooting rockets over the Oder ;)

War and terror....what a future to look forward to....or better not!

They're being whipped up by malign state actors who expend a lot of effort in keeping that region as a potential burden on the west.

Of course it's the poor that suffer as always; and those who went into the Gaza strip from the rest of Egypt did so because they were literally malnourished and there was UN aid there.

What I mean is that its sterile, its not an inconvenient fact that somehow supports your position. It is interesting in a minor sort of way but irrelevant to the thread.


No. The comparison is nonsense.

As said above there was a state to retreat into and the crimes being punished were committed by the German people not just the Nazi leadership. Neither of these things applied to the Palestinian people. I do agree that the ethnic cleansing was harsh, one of my German friends (from Erfurt) returned to Czechoslovakia with her father to visit His family home. The story of that visit was hard to hear.


Very peculiar, its not as though that has not been on the news and no one knows what happened...strange.

@Tacitus
Belittling the position some people find themselves in is not a good look.

....and why should someone differentiate between the people of Gaza and Hamas? Who can forget the gloating masses who mocked and spit at the victims paraded in front of them by the terrorists.

Where do you draw the line?

....right now, if there was a Palestinian state, it would be run by Hamas, and that would make it a Taliban-like state, and it would be a client state of Iran".

"Is that what the progressive movements of the western left wish to create? .....

Salman Rushdie

amp.theguardian.com/books/article/2024/may/20/salman-rushdie-says-a-palestinian-state-formed-today-would-be-taliban-like

Where would the Hamas be without the support of the common Palestinians?

A similiar question Germans are asked since the Nazis.....

Again...where do you draw the line...and...why?

@Bratwurst Boy
50% of Gazans were not born when the last election was held and they have been under siege since. You have to ask why Oslo failed.

The current Israeli PM has openly stated there will never be a Palestinian state on his watch some in his cabinet are worse. Bibi has consistently undermined secular leaders the only place that freedom of expression was in the mosques.

Carpet bombing people is not a good way to convince them to accept second class status nor is stealing land and murdering shepherds with impunity.

....and back to where we started! *sigh*

Israel LEFT Gaza...no settler....no army...no Jews at all!

They could have build something all alone by themselves, with all the billions support from the world streaming in regularly....but they didn't. They concentrated on attacking Israel, sending missiles...invading, raping, murdering, terrorizing!

Deny it and explain why the heck you support the terrorists...in easy words, so that I understand them at last!

It's a highly inconvenient fact, no matter how hard you try to pretend it isn't. Saying somnething isn't in your personal opinion relevant to your world view does not change facts.


This isn't a debating forum.


Very evil, and bringing the perpetrators to justice and freeing the surviving hostages must take priority over all other considerations.

@Barney


As pointed out to you, that is not true. If the Germans had not regained the trust of their neighbours, they would still be without a state.


I think we can put the idea that only the Hamas leadership is behind those crimes firmly to rest. We have seen the pictures and videos of cheering Palestinian civilians while the Israelian hostages are paraded through the streets, not to mention the credible reports that non-Hamas culprits joined the massacre. Who can forget the people spitting on Shani Louk's mutilated corpse? So much hatred on their faces... .

I pity the children or grand-children who may crome across those media in the future and find out what their parents did.


My position is driven by empathy. Most Germans who learn about the Palestinian plight and their drive for revenge will probbaly feel reminded of what they read in history books from 1919-1945. Yet this precisely why we understand that this is not a mental state that should continue. Sometimes harsh truths are needed.

@Bratwurst Boy
Please point to any post where I support the terrorists, you can't. Its a bit like those who shout antisemitism if you object to the murder of children by Israelis.

@jon357
Well it is a straw you are clutching to in order to support your claim thereby denying the existence of a people despite what all international bodies including your own government say.

There you go again; this isn't a 'debating club'.


At least you respect Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state with robust defence policies.

Sadly there are extremists who don't.

@Tacitus
The world has seen the images still doesn't make it right to treat Palestinians as inferior.

So, you don't?

I guess my English is still lacking....

Please point to any post of yours where you condemned Hamas thugs for 10/7.
Don't insult this forum with "I am against violence". This is equal to: John and Mary were involved in rape.

So what? It has nothing to do with the issue. Anyway, there is only half a sort told here, those poor Germans what about Poles those who su[p[osedlly benefited from it? How about ethnic cleaning done on Poles and our losses and trumous eh? You lot only see Germns.

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Nonsense. It wasn't what happened., the Cold War happened and one side used some Germans for their end while the other did the same.

There was no idea to settle some other people in Germany and give them all the rights and power while Gemrmans would be second-class citizens (if that at all) in their own country. If you compare something try to compare the like with the like.

He doesn't need to condemn or condone anything. WTF do you think you are?
It is only an exchange of opinion on the internet and those who can't make their point across with facts without using moral blackmail are morons at best or moral bankrupts at worst.

Your English is excellent.

Now, can you travel across town and smack some sense into some of your country's leaders?

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13450685/germany-arrest-benjamin-netanyahu-icc-war-crimes-isreal-gaza.html