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75 Years of Israel and the War - part 2


Barney
23 May 2024 #631
@jon357
Its still a sterile argument. Just as sterile an argument as many Jewish names being place specific but not in the Levant.

It means nothing. and as I said the colonial pattern of land holding is imposed by Europeans on the people from there.
jon357
23 May 2024 #632
Its still a sterile argume

It's not an argument. It's an inconvenient fact.

colonial pattern of land holding

You mean poor Jewish people, largely in Poland, clubbing together to buy land in their ancestral homeland from the 1860s onwards? Is that colonialism?

Prior to 1920, Gaza was a neglected and opressed part of the Ottoman Empire. That was colonialism.

imposed by Europeans

They were fleeing from Europeans.
Ironside
23 May 2024 #633
They were able to build a tunnel networks that rivals the subway system of mayor European cities.

lol! You believe it. lol! how cute!
---

Most of the settlers in Israel have their roots in the Middle East/North Africa.

Not factual. But in any case what difference does it make?
---

It is because the similarities are striking.

I would say that differences are striking much more. Germans got a land they could stay on their own, nobody controlled their minute dealing, and connections with the world, and most importantly nobody said hey now get out from Hamburg we like it here now so you clear off! Maybe to Austria, they speak German there too. What is the difference? You could be Austrian really. Nobody 'mowed' Germans after the WWII ended.
Barney
23 May 2024 #634
@jon357
No John diverting the thread to discussion about Arab naming conventions while ignoring traditional land ownership is sterile and advances nothing.

Is that colonialism?

Thats a very strange thing to ask

They were fleeing from Europeans.

Europeans fleeing Europeans, not surprisingly with a European outlook that went back many, many generations.
Tacitus
23 May 2024 #635
@Ironside

Germans got a land they could stay on their own, nobody controlled their minute dealing

Allied controle over German lifes was really tight for the first couple of years.

nobody said hey now get out from Humburg we like it here now so you clear off!

Well, the Germans also did not keep on attacking their neighbours... . Pretty sure we could have kissed Saarbr├╝cken goodbye for good if we had slaughtered a few thousand French civilians again in the early 1950s...

The Palestinians are experiencing what would have happened to Germans if they had not changed their ways.
jon357
23 May 2024 #636
traditional land ownership

Yes, and the settlers in Israel traditionally bought it.

Thats a very strange thing to ask

Is it though?

a European outlook

What's wrong with that?

advances nothing

This isn't some Jesuitical debating club.
Barney
23 May 2024 #637
@jon357
The amount of land purchased before 1948 and the Jewish population size in the mandate did not justify the division plan forced through by the US and guilt riddled Europeans. Britain to its credit warned against this plan.

It was Jews who didnt want to live in a unitary state with anyone else they couldnt dominate. What happens now and happened then is the Israeli state steals Palestinian land and allocates it to colonists with many state subsidies not available to the people who had lived there for many generations.

What's wrong with that?

Imposing foreign laws and practices is the very definition of colonialism.

I'm well aware that this is a bulletin board with the purpose of discussing issues relevant to the topic at hand. Introducing an interesting though ultimately sterile theme into the thread advances nothing. Your point about "the Egyptian" is going nowhere as pointed out above.
OP Novichok
23 May 2024 #638
It was Jews who didnt want to live in a unitary state with anyone else they couldnt dominate.

We call it self-determination and democracy.

Your point about "the Egyptian" is going nowhere as pointed out above.

It's the size of one's fist that matters. See Iraq and Ukraine. Lucky Israelis and their fist...
Bratwurst Boy
23 May 2024 #639
@Barney

The comparison with the german "Vertriebenen" is truly striking and absolutely viable, only surely inconvenient for today's Pali-supporter!

Back then there too existed organizations to support and connect the german refugees....the trauma was big and the dream of a return one time in the future was huge.

But as Tacitus already said, there was no support for that....neither from the german leaders, nor from "well meaning" neighbours. Nobody founded and supported and kept alive the resentment, the hate, the grief, the dream....so it died out with the generation who suffered the Flucht and the Vertreibung themselves. The following generations grew already new roots in the new Heimat.

That logical, natural procedure is kept from the Palis....thanks to their "friends and supporter"!
jon357
23 May 2024 #640
The amount of land purchased

How much land?

Imposing foreign laws and practices

As the Ottomans did initially and as the Arabs are attempting to do now. You probably mean imperialism rather than colonialism, however what's so wrong with either?

advances nothing. ....going nowhere

What you really mean is that you personally disagree with it.

Trying to 'debate' when entirely innocent Israeli
Hostages are being raped and murdered.
Bratwurst Boy
23 May 2024 #641
It was Jews who didnt want to live in a unitary state with anyone else they couldnt dominate.

Is that a wonder? Jews know what happens with them being a minority....they had 2000 years experience with that!

And you know what would happen in an Israel with an arab majority....under islam rule...don't you.
Tacitus
23 May 2024 #642
@Bratwurst Boy

That logical, natural procedure is kept from the Palis....thanks to their "friends and supporter"!

According to their logic, I might be a refugee... Despite the fact that my father was born in my home town. Utterly bizarre if you ask me... . What good may come from this kind of thinking?
Bratwurst Boy
23 May 2024 #643
My own family stemmed from Breslau....my mother was born on the "trek"....I dunno how they survived but they did, they were later settled in East-Berlin.

The UN hands down the refugee status to the descendants...at least for the Palis. Maybe I should look into possible claims to get something back? :)

I wonder what the Poles now living in Breslau would think of that....after having rebuild the land and the town....some of them even being refugees from further East themselves....
Tacitus
23 May 2024 #644
Imagine you'd start shooting rockets over the Oder ;)
Bratwurst Boy
23 May 2024 #645
War and terror....what a future to look forward to....or better not!
jon357
23 May 2024 #646
Utterly bizarre if you ask me.

They're being whipped up by malign state actors who expend a lot of effort in keeping that region as a potential burden on the west.

Of course it's the poor that suffer as always; and those who went into the Gaza strip from the rest of Egypt did so because they were literally malnourished and there was UN aid there.
Barney
23 May 2024 #647
What you really mean is that you personally disagree with it.

What I mean is that its sterile, its not an inconvenient fact that somehow supports your position. It is interesting in a minor sort of way but irrelevant to the thread.

inconvenient for today's Pali-supporter!

No. The comparison is nonsense.

As said above there was a state to retreat into and the crimes being punished were committed by the German people not just the Nazi leadership. Neither of these things applied to the Palestinian people. I do agree that the ethnic cleansing was harsh, one of my German friends (from Erfurt) returned to Czechoslovakia with her father to visit His family home. The story of that visit was hard to hear.

Trying to 'debate' when entirely innocent Israeli
Hostages are being raped and murdered

Very peculiar, its not as though that has not been on the news and no one knows what happened...strange.

@Tacitus
Belittling the position some people find themselves in is not a good look.
Bratwurst Boy
23 May 2024 #648
and the crimes being punished were committed by the German people

....and why should someone differentiate between the people of Gaza and Hamas? Who can forget the gloating masses who mocked and spit at the victims paraded in front of them by the terrorists.

Where do you draw the line?

....right now, if there was a Palestinian state, it would be run by Hamas, and that would make it a Taliban-like state, and it would be a client state of Iran".

"Is that what the progressive movements of the western left wish to create? .....


Salman Rushdie

amp.theguardian.com/books/article/2024/may/20/salman-rushdie-says-a-palestinian-state-formed-today-would-be-taliban-like

Where would the Hamas be without the support of the common Palestinians?

A similiar question Germans are asked since the Nazis.....

Again...where do you draw the line...and...why?
Barney
23 May 2024 #649
@Bratwurst Boy
50% of Gazans were not born when the last election was held and they have been under siege since. You have to ask why Oslo failed.

The current Israeli PM has openly stated there will never be a Palestinian state on his watch some in his cabinet are worse. Bibi has consistently undermined secular leaders the only place that freedom of expression was in the mosques.

Carpet bombing people is not a good way to convince them to accept second class status nor is stealing land and murdering shepherds with impunity.
Bratwurst Boy
23 May 2024 #650
....and back to where we started! *sigh*

Israel LEFT Gaza...no settler....no army...no Jews at all!

They could have build something all alone by themselves, with all the billions support from the world streaming in regularly....but they didn't. They concentrated on attacking Israel, sending missiles...invading, raping, murdering, terrorizing!

Deny it and explain why the heck you support the terrorists...in easy words, so that I understand them at last!
jon357
23 May 2024 #651
What I mean is that its sterile, its not an inconvenient fact

It's a highly inconvenient fact, no matter how hard you try to pretend it isn't. Saying somnething isn't in your personal opinion relevant to your world view does not change facts.

position

This isn't a debating forum.

Very peculiar

Very evil, and bringing the perpetrators to justice and freeing the surviving hostages must take priority over all other considerations.
Tacitus
23 May 2024 #652
@Barney

As said above there was a state to retreat into

As pointed out to you, that is not true. If the Germans had not regained the trust of their neighbours, they would still be without a state.

committed by the German people not just the Nazi leadership.

I think we can put the idea that only the Hamas leadership is behind those crimes firmly to rest. We have seen the pictures and videos of cheering Palestinian civilians while the Israelian hostages are paraded through the streets, not to mention the credible reports that non-Hamas culprits joined the massacre. Who can forget the people spitting on Shani Louk's mutilated corpse? So much hatred on their faces... .

I pity the children or grand-children who may crome across those media in the future and find out what their parents did.

Belittling the position some people find themselves in is not a good look.

My position is driven by empathy. Most Germans who learn about the Palestinian plight and their drive for revenge will probbaly feel reminded of what they read in history books from 1919-1945. Yet this precisely why we understand that this is not a mental state that should continue. Sometimes harsh truths are needed.
Barney
23 May 2024 #653
@Bratwurst Boy
Please point to any post where I support the terrorists, you can't. Its a bit like those who shout antisemitism if you object to the murder of children by Israelis.

@jon357
Well it is a straw you are clutching to in order to support your claim thereby denying the existence of a people despite what all international bodies including your own government say.
jon357
23 May 2024 #654
Well it is a straw you are clutching to

There you go again; this isn't a 'debating club'.

sraelis

At least you respect Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state with robust defence policies.

Sadly there are extremists who don't.
Barney
23 May 2024 #655
@Tacitus
The world has seen the images still doesn't make it right to treat Palestinians as inferior.
Bratwurst Boy
23 May 2024 #656
Please point to any post where I support the terrorists, you can't.

So, you don't?

I guess my English is still lacking....
OP Novichok
23 May 2024 #657
Please point to any post where I support the terrorists,

Please point to any post of yours where you condemned Hamas thugs for 10/7.
Don't insult this forum with "I am against violence". This is equal to: John and Mary were involved in rape.
Ironside
23 May 2024 #658
The story of that visit was hard to hear.

So what? It has nothing to do with the issue. Anyway, there is only half a sort told here, those poor Germans what about Poles those who su[p[osedlly benefited from it? How about ethnic cleaning done on Poles and our losses and trumous eh? You lot only see Germns.

----

If the Germans had not regained the trust of their neighbors

Nonsense. It wasn't what happened., the Cold War happened and one side used some Germans for their end while the other did the same.

There was no idea to settle some other people in Germany and give them all the rights and power while Gemrmans would be second-class citizens (if that at all) in their own country. If you compare something try to compare the like with the like.
Ironside
23 May 2024 #659
Please point to any post of yours where you condemned Hamas thugs for 10/7.

He doesn't need to condemn or condone anything. WTF do you think you are?
It is only an exchange of opinion on the internet and those who can't make their point across with facts without using moral blackmail are morons at best or moral bankrupts at worst.
AntV
23 May 2024 #660
I guess my English is still lacking.

Your English is excellent.

Now, can you travel across town and smack some sense into some of your country's leaders?

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13450685/germany-arrest-benjamin-netanyahu-icc-war-crimes-isreal-gaza.html

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