75 Years of Israel and the War - part 2

@Bratwurst Boy
The creation of Israel was and is a colonial project at the expanse of the Palestinian people. All people have a right to resist occupation. That's not support for attacks on civilians or a hatred for Jewish people

Nah...it's not the same!

The european settlers in the Americas had been colonists....the german settlers in Namibia had been colonists....all the Brits around the world had been colonists....the Jews in Israel have come home!

It's nothing else why you support the Palis today....you want them back where they have lived once, right?

I wonder what would happen if the native Indians would claim all their land back....violently....including terrorist acts and such....

And really....maybe Germans could found something similiar....Breslau....Danzig....Schlesien....so many land to gain back....no matter how, right? Germans had lived there for millennia after all....

@Bratwurst Boy
Unfortunately It is the same especially when you have a so called right of return for one religion only who are multiple of generations away as opposed to people and their immediate family who were born there. The colonial nature of the project is best illustrated by the apartheid nature of the occupation. How is it right to have two sets of laws for different people. A Christian and a Jewish person could commit the same crime in the same room and have two different legal systems judging them.

That problem might be solved with a real Pali state.....there all complaining Arabs can then move to....but it seems many oppressed and segregated Arabs still prefer to live in Israel, under jewish rule, instead of Hamas....wonder why that is!

And as long Israel is the one and only jewish state they have every right to secure its survival!

Christians and muslims have many states and countries all over the world....leave them Jews their only one!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country

Cos they were born there as were multiple generations of their families

...or they just prefer it there!

Even the jewish laws fit them better than a brutal terrorist reign! A murderous rule which have never given the Jews the same choice....

@Bratwurst Boy
Very week

.....and you answered never my other comparison....why no right of home-coming for native americans....or Germans....

Because you know the answer, Barney! Some things happened and are no longer changeable....so you have to live with it and make the best of it....the sooner the Palis accept that, the sooner they will live in their own hopefully flourishing state, and the whole region will become peaceful!

But we are living in the times when feeeeelings and wishes trump facts and reality...How dare you, BB, to be so cruel...and say that Israel will not commit suicide to make some feel better?

I am so disappointed with your cold-blooded kind of realism...Let's lie and dream a little longer to keep Barney and Hamas thugs busy and happy...

You hit the nail on the head BB!

Gloating Hamas hails 'important step' as Ireland, Norway and Spain become the latest nations to recognise a Palestinian state - but Israel says 'twisted' move 'rewards terrorism'

The US should expel these woke idiots from NATO.

There have been many similiar cases around the world, through all our histoy....lotsa borders would needed to be changed today to rectify old injustices....millions of peoples would need to be moved for that today....but there is no second case enjoying that kind of massive attention as the Israel-Pali case!

And I don't have to wonder about that...as it goes against Jews after all!

No matter what Israelis do it's never enough because Hamas Military Complex needs an enemy to exist. Israel is it.

They need the Palis poor and desperate....they don't want a flourishing Palestine at all! Arabs and Jews living in peace - the horror!

Western do-gooders need Palis poor and desperate, too...How else do you get a special pass to the High Moral Ground to feel good for five minutes...

Western do-gooders and Hamas.....what a pair!

No two colonial projects are the same despite using similar methods. Your comparisons however can be explained easily. The German state agreed that the lands they lost were lost permanently and the German people are very lucky the Allies were so generous to them. As for your second comparsion, the US regime were so worried about the issue they at first refused to join the ICJ. The series of genocides in the Americas were so successful it would be demographically impractical on such a scale.

This is despite some of these ethnic cleansing episodes taking place very recently.

In both cases it seems the right thing to do but the comparison with Palestine is a false equivalence.

@Barney


Something the Palestinians will have to come to terms with one day as well. Anything else just breeds resentment and hatred and prevents them from building something new on the land they do have.

Imagine how things would look today if the expelled Germans still had the same attitude towards Poland, with their children inheriting it. If I'd pass down the key from my grand-parents home in Danzig to my children, telling them that we have been unjustly expelled and that they would return one day to reclaim it. This is the kind of thing happening in many Palestinian families. It is just not the basis for a peaceful and prosperous life.

Palestinian communities cannot build anything as the Colonial administration keeps demolishing anything they dont want to steal in a continuing process of ethnic cleansing. The colonial administration encourages everything from land theft to murder on the indigenous population.

Perhaps if they stopped genocide, gave back the stolen land and allowed people a right to return to their stolen land the Palestinian people could get over the grave injustice that has been inflicted on them by Europeans , North Americans etc to solve what the Christian European called the Jewish problem.

The evicted Germans had a state(s) to retreat to Palestinians do not.

@Barney


They were able to build a tunnel networks that rivals the subway system of mayor European cities. What they could achieve if they focused their effort on building their state, instead of attacking Israel.


Untrue. The expelled Germans returned to occupational zones, often to areas whose German future was very much in doubt. The German states only formed 4 years later in 1949. In the end we gained a reunited German state after recognizing that we would not get our former territories back. That is something the Palestinians will have to recognize as well one day. Sometimes building your own future means coming to terms with the reality that injustices to your ancestors are a thing of the past and that it is better to live in the present.

Most of the settlers in Israel have their roots in the Middle East/North Africa.


The Arab world isn't big on nation states. Loyaties are tribal and most Gaza residents are from tribes in Northern Egypt.


Very few Gaza residents have any roots in the region. Pre-1948, 60,000 people lived in the Gaza strip.

Thats simply not true.

Expelled/cleansed Germans did have a state(s) to retreat to. They were being managed by the victorious powers plus France until they decided what to do for their future.

As I stated above no two genocides are the same. The comparison between post war Germany and Palestine is not a valid equivalent. The slow steady extinction of the Palestinian nation continues to this day and started well before Hamas was created.

I didnt mention the Colonists I was referring to the European states that helped create Israel, helped them develop nuclear weapons and coordinated with them in invading their neighbours.

Most of the colonists in the occupied territories come from the US and Europe.


Nonsense, 50% of the present population were born after the siege was started and after the last election.

@Barney


Come on, the tunnel system is something even Hamas is boasting about...


Many of those never held German citizenship before and there was most definitely no German state to return to in say 1946. The people going to Flensburg, Saarbrücken or Aachen could not be certain that they would live in Germany in the future.


It is, because the similarities are striking. Both had lost territories due to a war they started because they could not accept the loss of territory. They had to live on less land than before, which was also poor/destroyed. The expelled people dreamt of their return.

But the Germans were fortunate enough to have leaders that cared for their people, particulary in West Germany. And who were brave enough to tell them that their dreams of return would never come to pass. The Palestinians needed a Willy Brandt, but all they got was Arafat and from then it went only downhill.

Germans got their reunified state after Kohl confirmed that Breslau, Stettin and Königsberg would never again be part of Germany. And we lived very well afterwards, even though Putin's imperialism is now throwing long shadows (while also showing how damaging clinging to the past really is).

The Palestinians will have their own state once they come to terms with the fact Jerusalem and Tel Aviv belong to Israel.

Exactly. And have no roots in the Gaza strip.

Why do so many have the tribal name "Al Masri"?

Care to expand on that. Half the population of Gaza were born there to parents who lived there and grandparents who were either born in Gaza or were expelled from Palestine.

If you are going to argue that the European model of land ownership is better than the system the indigenous population developed (all be it under Ottoman rule) there is no point in denying the colonial project you have made it explicit.


They did have reich citizenship or whatever it was called. I dont however have a problem in describing what happened as ethnic cleansing.

And there is no equivalence


Just googled that and it really is clutching at straws and would lead to an exchange about naming convention among people.
Someone called Thatcher may never have been up a ladder in their lives etc...

@Barney


Not necessarily. Quite a few German-speaking people from e.g. Rumania or the Soviet Union never held a German passport before they arrived.


Aside from the similarities I've mentioned. And I pray that the Palestinians can one day make peace with what they will never have and build a future for themselves. Sometimes a total defeat can be the start for something better. A total defeat of Hamas may be the best that could happen to the Palestinian people long-term.

Why would Israelis agree to an independent state that wants to end theirs?
I heard many bad things about Jews but never that they are morons. That title belongs to the Western volunteers in Ukraine.

The Volga Germans made up the majority of those outside the Reich and it was indeed ethnic cleansing however they are a small proportion of the people forced to flee their homes. In a twisted way I can understand their treatment (but dont agree) after what the German soldiers and people did in the war.

There is no equivalence at all with Palestine.

It isn't. It's not a surname, since that region doesn't use them.


That's a surname based on an ancient trade. Al Masri, The Egyptian, is a recent, post-1948 description of those who went to Gaza from the northern Egyptian conurbation since the state of Israel was founded. They went there due to high birthrate and poverty.