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Russian Views On Poland and Vice Versa


Bratwurst Boy
21 Dec 2023 #301
....so, so right! :)

It could help if both try to communicate in high german, but when we are falling back to our dialects...heh:)
OP Bobko
21 Dec 2023 #302
It could help if both try to communicate in high german

Yes, it helps when people speak the Great Russian.

If they use their silly southern or western dialects, like Ukrainian or Belarusian - things become more difficult.
Alien
21 Dec 2023 #303
, like Ukrainian

Yes, especially the Ukrainian language must sound like machine gun fire to russians.
OP Bobko
21 Dec 2023 #304
Somewhere, once, I heard that Dutch sounds like a drunk Englishman trying to speak German.

To Russians, Ukrainian sounds like someone is from the farm, and has had much to drink.
Bratwurst Boy
21 Dec 2023 #305
...say, is it the same with all dialects?

The only one I find a bit bearable (for a short time that is) is the "Wiener Schmäh"....the dialect spoken in Vienna....but otherwise they are all gruesome, arent' they! :)

(I would even admit that my "Berliner Schnauze" must sound horrible to non-Berliner Germans!)
Alien
21 Dec 2023 #306
from the farm, and has had much to drink.

Ok, what about Polish, is it the language of city people?
Torq
21 Dec 2023 #307
@Alien

They call us "Psheki", so probably we sound to them like a combination of a vacuum cleaner and a snake or something. :)
OP Bobko
21 Dec 2023 #308
@Torq

It definitely sounds Ukrainian to us.

I realize this is because Ukrainian borrows so heavily from Polish.

All the шановный, дякуе, мае рацию, размовляти etc type stuff.
Torq
21 Dec 2023 #309
It definitely sounds Ukrainian to us.

Hmm... Ukrainian, apart from obvious lexical similarities, doesn't sound like Polish to me at all. Slovak and Czech are much more similar to my ear.

When it comes to accent and the melody of the language Ukrainian seems similar to Russian to me (a bit more coarse, but still quite similar).
OP Bobko
21 Dec 2023 #310
accent and the melody

My god...

From my ex and every Ukrainian I ever met I had to listen to how Ukrainian is "the second most melodic language after Italian."

Please do not compare melodicity of the two languages, because you are hurting Ukrainian national ego.

I admit, I sometimes like to listen to it. It's a warm language. Grown men, covered with gunpowder marks and mud, speaking Ukrainian - suddenly sound like teddy bears.

For the same reason it's childish and retarded.
Torq
21 Dec 2023 #311
"the second most melodic language after Italian."

Not to my ear. All the "ти" endings sound rather unpleasant to me.

you are hurting Ukrainian national ego

:)

I'm sorry to hear that. I usually tend to avoid hurting national egos; sometimes I fail *coughturkishnationalegocough* but at least I try.
OP Bobko
21 Dec 2023 #312
Not to my ear

Ya you told me about the similarities with чваныки.

It doesn't sound very intelligent... but that's because it has an agrarian origination. Maybe Ukrainian is the true depository of "folk speak".
Torq
21 Dec 2023 #313
Ya you told me about the similarities with чваныки.

Either with cwaniaky ze stolycy (so annoying!) or with people of limited intellectual capabilities (that's the effect the "y" ending has on me).

But it's only my subjective reception of the way the language sounds. I'm not biased against the language because of my family history or anything; as the Yugoslavs used to say during their civil war: "jezik nije kriv".
Mr Grunwald
22 Dec 2023 #314
@Torq
I have found that Wilno accent and Lwów accent the most interesting (from movies), also old fashioned Jewish accent in Polish too.

A sketch about "Sęk" will never leave my memory, the accent, way of speaking and deminour is just too wonderful.
Torq
22 Dec 2023 #315
@Gruni

Absolutely. Polish eastern accents are lovely, especially "prosze ja ciebi, ze Lwowa". :)
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #316
I have been reading up, recently, on the life of Wojciech Jaruzelski, the former head of the Polish People's Republic.

In many ways, it is a tragic history - unfortunately - and one deeply connected with my country. I'm surprised that more Russians do not know the story of this man.

Jaruzelski was born in 1923, in a family of the Polish aristocracy with roots going back to the 15th century. His grandpa was a member of the Polish uprising in 1863-64, and for this was sent by the Tsar to ten years of exile in Siberia. After Poland gained independence, his father served as a volunteer in the Polish army during the Polish-Soviet War. Indeed, his father had many reasons to fight for Poland, as a very large landowner.

A young Jaruzelski attended a Catholic gymanasium, and all indicators probably pointed at a successful career as a lawyer or businessman. However, then Germany invaded, and shortly after - the Soviet Union. The Jaruzelski family fled to Lithuania, which soon also came under Soviet occupation. Him and his family were sent into exile in Siberia, his father assigned to a labor camp.

From an interview with Jaruzelski:

«Глядя уже из ссыльного вагона на советских солдат-охранников в ненавистных мне тогда шинелях чужой армии, с винтовками на плечах, мне и в голову не могло прийти, что вскоре вместе с солдатами в точно таких же, как и у них, гимнастерках и шинелях, одетый, правда, в новенькую польскую форму, я попаду на войну. С такой же винтовкой бить гитлеровцев, освобождать Польшу, Варшаву...».

Translation:

"Looking out of that exile train car, at the Soviet soldiers guarding us, wearing the despised uniforms of a foreign army, with rifles on their shoulders, I could never have imagined, that soon - with soldiers just like these - in Russian style uniform, but remade in Polish fashion, I would be thrown into the war. With a rifle just like that, to fight Hitlerites, to liberate Poland, Warsaw...".

In Siberia, Jaruzelski father died in 1942 - shortly after being released from the GULAG. To support his family, a young Jaruzelski had to work as a mover and a lumberjack in the taiga of the Altay.

Later, Jaruzelski ended up being exiled himself. To a labor camp in Karaganda, in Soviet Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan, Jaruzelski permanently ruined his back, as well as his eyes. This is why he always wore the sunglasses, which earned him the nickname of "Welder" from the Poles.

Despite all these insults, humiliations, and abuse that the Jaruzelski family experienced in the USSR, despite all the historical trauma that exists between our two countries, his personal attitude towards Russians always remained respectful.

Quote:

«Когда мы жили в Сибири, одна из знакомых россиянок спросила как-то: "А где ваш отец?" Говорю: "В лагере". "Ну, - отвечает, - это товарищ Сталин не знает..." Таков менталитет российского народа, для которого существует хороший царь и плохие бояре. Нужно знать этот народ, чтобы понять его. И я понимаю. Нельзя, чтобы действия каких-нибудь подлецов, которых можно найти в каждой стране, бросали тень на весь народ, который сам стал первой жертвой сталинизма. Одно могу сказать о россиянах - героический, но очень многострадальный народ...»

"When we lived in Siberia, one of our Russian acquaintances once asked us: "And where is your father?". I told her: "He's in a camp." "Well," - she answered - "Comrade Stalin does not know this." Such is the mentality of the Russian people, for whom there exists a kind Tsar and rotten nobility. You need to know this people, to understand it. And I do understand it. We must not allow, the actions of various miscreants, which can be found in every country, to throw shade on an entire people, which became the first victim of Stalinism. I can say one thing about the Russian - they are a heroic and long-suffering people." "When we lived in Siberia, one of our Russian acquaintances once asked us: "And where is your father?". I told her: "He's in a camp." "Well," - she answered - "Comrade Stalin does not know this." Such is the mentality of the Russian people, for whom there exists a kind Tsar and rotten nobility. You need to know this people, to understand it. And I do understand it. We must not allow, the actions of various miscreants, which can be found in every country, to throw shade on an entire people, which became the first victim of Stalinism. I can say one thing about the Russian - they are a heroic and long-suffering people."

I think this is enough for one post about Jaruzelski.



pawian
29 Dec 2023 #317
This is why he always wore the sunglasses, which earned him the nickname of "Welder" from the Poles.

Never heard of the welder. We compared him to Pinochet in Chile. Similar dictators.
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #318
Great post, Bobi - thank you for that.

Jaruzelski

Pawian will in a moment jump out from behind a bush and start talking about sexual intercourse with everybody's "stalinist granpas" but I will say this: my father, who is a wise and generous man who has been through a lot, has always respected Jaruzelski despite all the mud that was thrown at the general by many "turbo-patriots". I was for a long time skeptical until I started to investigate the history myself and read, among other things, Jaruzelski's book "Być może to ostatnie słowo".

The guy had to make a lot of difficult choices in his life but he had brains and balls, and - most importantly - huge love for Poland in his heart.

they are a heroic and long-suffering people

Perhaps even more than Poles (which not many of us will admit).

EDIT: Pawian's already here. "Feck your stalinist granpas" phrase will be thrown in 3... 2... 1...
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #319
@pawian

Sorry, I was translating the quotes myself, and must have made a duplicate of the last quote when trying to italicize it.

We compared him to Pinochet in Chile. Similar dictators

In the enlightened West, Pinochet has a pretty good reputation of an effective manager. Not many tears were spilled in Washington over the death of the Communist Salvador Allende.

I doubt Jaruzelski was a fascist in the mold of Pinochet.

Maybe Jaruzelski was similar to Pinochet, in not having much capacity for sentimentality - due to being brutalized himself.
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #320
Pawian will in a moment jump out from behind a bush
EDIT: Pawian's already here.

:):):) You are obsessed with Pawian. Amasing!!!! :):):)

I doubt Jaruzelski was a fascist in the mold of Pinochet.

Who said fascist? I said dictator.

In the enlightened West, Pinochet has a pretty good reputation of an effective manager

In Poland, he was the devil who suppressed freedom in Chile. Only rabid rightists supported him.
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #321
You are obsessed with Pawian.

Replace 'obsessed' with 'annoyed'. :)
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #322
has always respected Jaruzelski despite all the mud that was thrown

Yes, a lot of homo sovieticuses did and still do respect him. Shame.
Latest findings are that it was Jaruzelski who vehemently demanded Soviet Russians to invade Poland if his 1981 martial law failed.
He was the scummiest communist traitor.

with 'annoyed'. :)

Why? I am doing my job, while you are doing yours and we both keep balance in nature aka forum. Why are you annoyed??? It is a mystery to me. You like Russians, I prefer Ukrainians. You want to keep Soviet monuments, I prefer to abolish them. You respect Jaruzelski, I call him traitor .... etc etc etc :):):)
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #323
lot of homo sovieticuses did and still do respect him. Shame

Where is General Jaruzelski's villa in Spain, or yacht in the Adriatic? What did he steal from you, or from Poland? Did he sell Poland to the highest bidder?

Unlike a lot of the guys on the scene today, these dinosaurs really do seem like idiots. With total and complete power in their hands, they didn't even set aside a little nest egg in Belgravia.

Doesn't the history I provided make you respect him at least a little bit more?
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #324
Yes, a lot of homo sovieticuses did and still do respect him.

Have you just called my Dad a "homo sovieticus"?

Latest findings are that it was Jaruzelski who vehemently demanded Soviet Russians to invade Poland

Latest findings by whom? Antoni Macierewicz? Or some other deluded maniacs who would sh*t themselves ten times if they had to go through half of what Jaruzelski was.

You like Russians, I prefer Ukrainians. You want to keep Soviet monuments, I prefer to abolish them. You respect Jaruzelski, I call him traitor

Hmm... I suppose the balance of nature is an important thing. So be it.
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #325
What did he steal from you, or from Poland?

He stole our fekking freedom!! From 1981 to 1989. We lost fekking 8 years!!!

Did he sell Poland to the highest bidder?

Yes!! He sold Poland to the highest bidder of the region - the Soviet Russia!!!! Fekk him for ever. Lkt him fekking burn in Hell till eternity and beyond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is General Jaruzelski's villa in Spain, or yacht in the Adriatic?

Stupid argument. Kaczyński is also a recluse uninterested in personal wealth, living with a cat and nothing else. Does it make him better? No. It only proves that possessing complete power is utter sick priority for those dictators.
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #326
He stole our fekking freedom!

He saved us from Soviet intervention - Hungary- or Czechoslovakia-style. And he also made it clear that Wojsko Polskie would fight the intervening forces, so the mess would be exponentially bigger than with Czechs or Hungarians.

Fekk him for ever. Lkt him fekking burn in Hell till eternity and beyond!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wise the f*ck up Pawian, will you? *rolls eyes*
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #327
the balance of nature is an important thing. So be it.

Yes. Don`t be annoyed, then. I said nothing about grandpas for a long time, either to you or Bobko. I am decent and cultural on you.

He saved us from Soviet intervention -

No, he did what a true communist leader had to do - suppress Solidarity. Otherwise, his party mates would suppress him. That is why he begged Soviets for help in case sth went wrong.

will you? *rolls eyes*

Crazy??? :):):):)
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #328
he begged Soviets for help in case sth went wrong

Nonsense.

Oh, well... I suppose we will have to agree to disagreee on this one. Balance in nature and all that.
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #329
Lkt him fekking burn in Hell till eternity and beyond!

How can you speak this way, about a Pole that defended Poland with rifle in hand?

Don't you think he had more reason to hate Russians - than even you? Given that they had killed his father, and even sent him to a labor camp where he lost his health.

I think Kania is right, to judge Jaruzelski - you have to put yourself in his shoes. Not everything is so simple.
Lenka
29 Dec 2023 #330
The guy had to make a lot of difficult choices in his life but he had brains and balls, and - most importantly - huge love for Poland in his heart.

Ok, I feel like I'm in an alternative universe. I have to agree with you again!

I generally think there was a big part of society that tried to do the best for Poland, let it be as policeman, prison staff, military.


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