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Russian Views On Poland and Vice Versa


Novichok
29 Dec 2023 #331
Memo to Torq and Bobko: Ignore the a-hole.
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #332
Ok, I feel like I'm in an alternative universe. I have to agree with you again!

Same here! :)

Strange things happen in this forum recently. I must admit that I had a wrong idea about you in the past.

there was a big part of society that tried to do the best for Poland, let it be as policeman, prison staff, military

Of course.
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #333
Very well, so be it. I will continue my post on Jaruzelski.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In his own words, he buried his father - Wladislaw, by wrapping his body into Pravda newspapers instead of linen cloth.

Wojciech himself when still in Siberia, had to walk 180 km on foot, to the location of his logging camp. This was the first time he injured his eyes, through snow blindness. It was at this logging camp, likely, where Jaruzelski also learned to speak his famously unaccented Russian.

Everything changed for Jaruzelski, in the summer of 1943. The Soviet government was starting to assemble the 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division, the first division of the First Army (Berling Army). Military age Poles in the camps were being recruited, and Jaruzelski was one of them - enlisting into this division. And so, his debt to the Soviet Motherland was paid. Shortly afterwards, noticing his talents, the Soviet military sent him to attend lectures at the K. Voroshilov Ryazan Infantry School (now the Ryazan Guards Higher Airborne Command School).

After his time in Ryazan, Jaruzelski served in the 2nd Warsaw Infantry Division of Henryk Dąbrowski, in the rank of porucznik - being sent immediately to the Front. From the Fall of 1943, he served as a submachine gun squad commander. From the Spring of 1944, commander of a cavalry reconnaissance squad. From January of 1945, as intelligence aide-de-camp to the chief of staff of the 5th Regiment.

Took part in military operations on the Wisla, the Magnuszew Bridgehead, the Liberation of Warsaw, the storming of Eastern Pomerania, battles on the Baltic coastline, the Oder, and the Elbe.

For valor in combat, was awarded multiple Polish combat medals and orders, including the highest Polish military honor - the War Order of Virtuti Militari.

As is evident from his biography, Jaruzelski did not sit in the rear as a staff clerk. He was either at the front as an infantryman, a reconnaissance team, or as an intelligence officer - during the most hardcore years of the war.

In 1946, Jaruzelski was sent to fight UPA insurgents in Western Ukraine, and to extinguish remnants of the AK. This is material for another post at some later time.
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #334
Ignore

Don`t be stupid. Even if all forum azholes ignore me, I will still do my job.
Even if all decent posters ignore me, I will still do my job.
Even when everybody ignores me, I will still do my job.
Why?

Because I am fekking Polish and I know I am right. The starry sky above me and the moral law within me. Simple. Ha!
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #335
I must say, I am amazed at Russia's capacity to absolutely brutalize someone and simultaneously turn them into an agent of her interests.

What other country can do this?

It is a superpower - no less. Something more than Stockholm Syndrome.
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #336
I must say, I am amazed at Russia's capacity to absolutely brutalize someone and simultaneously turn them into an agent of her interests.

It is not Russia in this case but totalitarian system. Do you remember the ending of 1984? Smith felt he truly loved the Big Brother after being brutalised during the investigation and brainwashed. Jaruzelski was brainwashed in a similar manner.
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #337
Jaruzelski was brainwashed in a similar manner.

So for you he is just some Polish Ephialtes, who showed the army of Xerxes how to flank the Spartans at Thermopylae?
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #338
@Bobko

And yet the Soviet Union (i.e. Russia on steroids) fell miserably into a hundred pieces, so maybe (just maybe) the brutalizing tactics wasn't the most efficient.

And anyways, I don't think it's an exactly accurate description of Russia's/Soviet Union's approach to their vassals. If we look at European conduct in their African colonies or the brutality of Third Reich, Russians seem almost benevolent in comparison.

So maybe it was the other way around? Maybe you were too soft?
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #339
Maybe you were too soft?

Nah, we're just Russians. We bumble about, don't think, and terrible things happen.

Whether we are doing some nice version of empire, or some super brutalizing sort, it won't work because nothing works in Russia as intended.

My feeling is that we didn't so much colonize, as other people ended up being inside of our little circus.

It's hard to compare what we did to the organized and industrialized exploitation that other more civilized people's managed. We just kind of grew, like an amoeba on a lab plate.
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #340
Nah, we're just Russians. We bumble about, don't think, and terrible things happen.

Ha, ha. You can bullsh*t pawian but not me, kiddo. Remember that I am PF's honorary Russophile (together with Novi but he annoys me recently). Alas, times are difficult for Russophiles in Poland, let me tell you.
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #341
Alas, times are difficult for Russophiles in Poland,

Don`t bother. Targowica supporters had similar difficulties in the past..... so, nothing new in Eastern Europe. :):):)
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #342
@Torq

Well, I am sort of agreeing with you - that the evil impulse is absent in Russia. After all, we didn't gas all those Poles we sent to Siberia. Instead, we made them starve and freeze through characteristic mismanagement - and afterwards had the balls to ask them if they feel strong enough to go liberate their homeland.

What allowed us to do so, is that we did much worse things to our own people, and then also asked them to sacrifice. So, to us at least, it seemed normal.

It's just part of living in Russia. Up is down here. That's why I think it is not possible to compare Russian life to African colonies or Third Reich Generalgouvernement.
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #343
Targowica supporters had similar difficulties

That is one sh*tty analogy, pawian. Even for you. :)
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #344
we didn't gas all those Poles we sent to Siberia.

Coz you had already executed the elites who could influence those sent to Siberia. 22.000 with a shot in the head.

That is one sh*tty analogy,

Truth hurts the most. Always. :):):)
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #345
@Bobko

Right. Sorry, I misread it. Time for me to get some sleep probably.

that the evil impulse is absent in Russia

That's because you're Slavic. We can be furious and cruel sometimes but there is simply no capacity in us for a long-run, sustained, malicious cruelty and industrialised genocide. Perhaps that's why we have been only moderately successful as compared to other races.
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #346
22.000 with a shot in the head.

It's terrible, and I do not argue that it is not terrible.

However...

Remember, that for many of the Soviet officers participating in this crime, these were people that they had fought, and lost comrades to, not 19 years before. So now its 2023, then we are talking about 2004. Polish noble officers were not exactly popular with Stalin, who happened to be a front commander during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920.

These were not just Polish elites to be exterminated, these were personal enemies that had previously humiliated them.
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #347
no capacity in us for industrialised genocide

No, of course not. Those millions who perished in Gulag camps are a banality compared to others` crimes. Like dust!
Who am I? asks Torq.
Mere dust - replies the wind.
hahahaha
Torq
29 Dec 2023 #348
Mere dust - replies the wind.

It's not the wind that replies but the Word of God... pulvis es et in pulverem reverteris.

Anyways, I'm off to catch some z's. Good night.
OP Bobko
29 Dec 2023 #349
Those millions who perished in Gulag camps

Ehh what?

From what I remember from school, the number was something like 1.5M from the 1930s thru 1953 when Stalin died, and they were shut down. This was in comparison to the approximately 20M people that went through the camps.

Of these 1.5M that died, most was through malnutrition and disease. This is a f*cking crime, and a horror, but if we are having a serious discussion it is not the same as extermination.

According to Wikipedia (English):

Archival researchers have found "no plan of destruction" of the gulag population and no statement of official intent to kill them, and prisoner releases vastly exceeded the number of deaths in the Gulag.

People died in the GULAG because they were prisons operated in a country where free people were dying on the outside from the same reasons. Use your brain genius.
pawian
29 Dec 2023 #350
but the Word of God

You want to involve Goddess into dealing with you?? Forget it - She has more important stuff on her head.

I said wind on purpose - Russophiles loving Russia against all reason will bo gone with the wind. Or blown with the wind if you prefer modern literature.
Miloslaw
29 Dec 2023 #351
Archival researchers have found "no plan of destruction" of the gulag population and no statement of official intent to kill them, and prisoner releases vastly exceeded the number of deaths in the Gulag.

Bollox!

That just shows how useless and incapable Russians are.It does not excuse them.Their aim was the the same as Germans,to kill all dissenters.

Both failed.But the Germans were much more efficient than the lazy and stupid Russians.
Torq
30 Dec 2023 #352
lazy and stupid Russians

Ehhh...

Lazy people don't tame Siberia or build cities in the Arctic Circle. Stupid people don't fly into space or become world class physicians and mathematicians.

Wise the f*ck up, guys... wise the f*ck up.
OP Bobko
30 Dec 2023 #353
just shows how useless and incapable Russians are.It does not excuse them.Their aim was the the same as Germans,to kill all dissenters

Man you are seriously delusional. Maybe even paranoid.

If we wanted to kill industrially, somehow I believe we would have figured it out.

You praising the Germans even in this instance for some greater efficiency is grotesque.
amiga500
30 Dec 2023 #354
Yes I'm sure Stalin and Pol Pot had hard lives too.. Boo Fu*king Hoo.

that tried to do the best for Poland, let it be as policeman,

Of course a commie spinster like yourself with agree with the russophile kania, was your father in the UB or SB? the best for poland lolzo.

It is proven beyond doubt by historians and the archives that Jaruzielski requested for the russians to invade Poland if martial law failed. But due to them already being entangled in Afghanistan, recieving grain aid from USA, and the threat of sanctions from the west, they weren't very keen on the idea.
Torq
30 Dec 2023 #355
Jaruzelski requested for the russians to invade Poland if martial law failed.

Deluded IPN nonsense. When Jaruzelski was still alive he always said that the fabrication is repeated every year before 13th December but no matter how many times a lie is repeated, it doesn't become the truth. Read "Być może to ostatnie słowo", if you still can read in Polish, and think for yourself, if you still can.
Ironside
30 Dec 2023 #356
I wouldn't see Jaruzelski as a hero, I would say that he was an anti-hero. I don't buy into his brave, or wise statement act.

I see him as a person who due to some external pressure as a young man has been broken and regrew crocet. He remained a good dog to his Soviet masters and that can be a positive thing that you can say about him - he sure was loyal to the end.

From Poland and the interest of the Polish people he was rather harmful and his harmful influence (and people on his side) remain with us. Ending as a Banana Republic with Tusk's remittance to power.
Alien
1 Jan 2024 #357
Ending as a Banana Republic

Bananas don't grow in Poland, but apples do.
Paulina
3 Jan 2024 #358
I guess when you're that old you have nothing to lose and you can tell it as it is:

Russian lady tells everything like there's no tomorrow:


Paulina
16 Feb 2024 #359
Oh f*ck, NAVALNY IS DEAD!

bbc.com/news/world-europe-68315943

"Prosecutors have warned Russians not to join any mass protests and several people were detained both in central Moscow and in other cities including St Petersburg, Murmansk and Nizhny-Novgorod.."
mafketis
16 Feb 2024 #360
NAVALNY IS DEAD!

Get with the program, he's been dead since this morning (IINM I first posted about it on the Ukraine defense thread).


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