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The spiritual heirs of the Polish Communist Party


Alligator - | 261
25 Mar 2012 #31
slander which while may not be provable, is nevertheles common knowledge
among population.

Slander a common knowledge among Poles?
Definetly not as court ruling proves.

And poems live forever

Only the good ones...

What does it prove?

That we have rule of law in Poland.
That law applies to everybody irrespective of age, occupation...
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Mar 2012 #32
I think alot of the posters on this thread are assuming that, as the thread's title suggests, the slander this poet was convicted for was calling the newspaper the "spiritual heir of the Polish Communist Party" and I hope this is not the case, because how does one prove, or disprove, "spiritual inheritance" in a court of law? I suspect that the slander he was convicted for was his claim that the newspaper hates Christianity and Poland.

stop defending Rymkiewicz. He isn`t worth your time and energy, really.

He is mentioned, albeit briefly, in Czesław Miłosz's The History of Polish Literature on page 413.

in my humble opinion it is utterly stupid to take 77 year old poet to court for slander

I agree. A cranky old man's opinion should not be prosecutable in this way. Speech should be free.
pawian 178 | 15,558
25 Mar 2012 #33
Speech should be free.

Yes, someoone`s private speech should be free as long as someone else`s private rights of freedom from slander and false accusations aren`t violated.

Simple.

A cranky old man's opinion should not be prosecutable in this way.

Even cranky old men have to learn that they need to be more careful.

Now, a more interesting matter arises.

Rymkiewicz commented on the court`s ruling with a traditional Polish saying: Musi to na Rusi, a u nas jak kto chce. Must is in Russia, in Poland as you wish., suggesting he won`t obey.

If he doesn`t apologise, should he land in the slammer? What do you think?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Mar 2012 #34
Simple.

Is it simple in this case? Saying the staff of a newspaper hates something doesn't violate their rights as far as I can tell, but then again I live in America where we are free to express such opinions without being prosecuted. Pawain, I fear your hatred of the PiS party, and your status as an ardent cheerleader for the PO, blinds you to just how silly it is for this old man to be convicted for expressing his opinion of a newspaper.
pawian 178 | 15,558
25 Mar 2012 #35
Pawain, I fear your hatred of the PiS party,

You are wrong, I don`t cherish hatred to anything and anybody. Stop judging me by your measure. :):):):)

Feeling utter disgust at unintelligent maniacs isn`t hatred yet. :):):):):):)

and your status as an ardent cheerleader for the PO

Yes, I am an ardent cheerleader of PO as the only force able to stop PiS from ruling Poland again which I think would be much more disastrous than in 2005-2007. :):):):):):)

PS. Ok, I admit, I hate historic ignorance. :):):):)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Mar 2012 #36
nutty maniacs

The PiS party could take you to court for saying this. That is why these overly broad slander laws are absolutely stupid, and you, Pawain, are a hypocrite.

Stop judging me by your measure. :):):):)

We all must judge by our own measure, and in my judgement your overuse of "happy face" emoticons is contemptable.
pawian 178 | 15,558
25 Mar 2012 #37
The PiS party could take you to court for saying this.

Yes, and they will lose because I can prove I am right. :):):):):):):):)

and in my judgement your overuse of "happy face" emoticons is contemptable.

:):):):):):):):)

Sorry, I can`t stop laughing when talking to you. :):):):):)

and you, Pawain, are a hypocrite.

Tell me more.... :):):):):):)
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
25 Mar 2012 #38
nutty maniacs

but they are nutty maniacs much in the same way as US right wing, NRA, Tea Party, bible thumping southern creationists, Sarah Palin and the like supporters

and in my judgement your overuse of "happy face" emoticons is contemptable.

contemptible??? ahhh.... questionable - yes!

Question to Pawian: What the fvck man ???
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Mar 2012 #39
Sorry, I can`t stop laughing when talking to you.

Why, is it that you are just as hysterical as the little school girls that you've modeled your emoticon-mania on?

Tell me more....

You are a "teamplayer" and this poet is on the "wrong team" and so you rejoice over his conviction and it seems that you are even eager for him, a septuagenarian, to go to prison. Such herd mentality is disgusting.
pawian 178 | 15,558
25 Mar 2012 #40
You are a "teamplayer"

Utter bulshyt. :):):):)

I am a soloist and that is my biggest problem. :):):):)

Why, is it that you are just as hysterical as the little school girls that you've modeled your emoticon-mania on?

Des, I suggest you go for a relaxing walk in the park and come back to the forum when you cool off a little. You are obviously very agitated. :):):):):)

See you tomorrow, hopefully in a better mood. :):):):)

Such herd mentality is disgusting.

You should see the herd mentality of Rymkiewicz`s supporters who came to court..... :):):):):):)

Watch from 4.15



:):):):):):):)

Question to Pawian: What the fvck man ???

Nothing. I am turning in. :):):):):):)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
25 Mar 2012 #41
Des, I suggest you go for a relaxing walk in the park and come back to the forum when you cool off a little. You are obviously very agitated.

I am not agitated at all. I am advocating freedom of speech. Take your suggestions and stick them in your hypocritical ear.

but they are nutty maniacs much in the same way as US right wing

I certainly wouldn't vote for the PiS party, but that doesn't mean I support stifling its supporters' freedom to express their opinions. True liberalism includes supporting freedom of opinion and freedom of speech.
Alligator - | 261
26 Mar 2012 #42
but then again I live in America where we are free to express such opinions without being prosecuted.

No, you can't. In USA there are defamation laws and if you will express slanderous opinion and someone will take offence you will have to suffer consequences.

hg.org/defamation.html

Saying the staff of a newspaper hates something doesn't violate their rights as far as I can tell,

Thank God, "only as far as you can tell". Rymkiewicz wasn't just saying that GW staff hate something (like this something was spinach). He clearly said that best selling Polish newspaper hates Poles, Poland and Christians. Such word have weight and can be possibly damaging to newspaper, if they will not react to that.

xzqbq7: in my humble opinion it is utterly stupid to take 77 year old poet to court for slander
I agree. A cranky old man's opinion should not be prosecutable in this way. Speech should be free.

So if "cranky old man's opinion" should not be persecuted, then please write the age from which the law in Poland shold not aply to citizens. 60? 70? After that limit age they can say and do whatever they want I presume?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
26 Mar 2012 #43
No, you can't. In USA there are defamation laws and if you will express slanderous opinion and someone will take offence you will have to suffer consequences.

Yes, I can. Read the following regarding defamation from the site you linked to:

Statements made about a public person (political candidates, governmental officeholder, movie star, author, celebrity, sports hero, etc.) are usually exempt, even if they are untrue and harmful.

hg.org/defamation.html
Statements claiming that a newspaper hates a religion, or a nation, are not prosecutable offences in the USA.

Rymkiewicz wasn't just saying that GW staff hate something (like this something was spinach). He clearly said that best selling Polish newspaper hates Poles, Poland and Christians. Such word have weight and can be possibly damaging to newspaper, if they will not react to that.

This is a ridiculous claim. In the USA people say that politicians, and newspapers, "hate America" quite often. Part of living in a free society is that people are allowed to express such opinions. So what if they say such things and they are not true? Such words do not have any "weight". People are forbidden from shouting fire in a crowded theatre, when there is no fire, because it could cause a stampede that injures people, but saying a newspaper "hates Poland" is not dangerous in any way. Newspapers do not deserve special protection from the opinions of the public.

So if "cranky old man's opinion" should not be persecuted, then please write the age from which the law in Poland shold not aply to citizens. 60? 70?

No man's opinion, regardless of his age, should be a prosecutable offense in Poland.
Alligator - | 261
26 Mar 2012 #44
Next time, please provide full quote or I might think that you try to distort reality to your liking.
"Statements made about a public person (political candidates, governmental officeholder, movie star, author, celebrity, sports hero, etc.) are usually exempt, even if they are untrue and harmful. However, if they were made with malice – with hate, dislike, intent and/or desire to harm and with reckless disregard for the truth – the public person may have a cause of action. This was determined by the U.S. Supreme Court and has been re-interpreted various times."
modafinil - | 418
26 Mar 2012 #45
If he doesn`t apologise, should he land in the slammer? What do you think?

Unless he is inciting violence or other acts of criminality it is hysterical lunacy to deprive someone of their freedom for mere words. To lock someone up for not saying sorry is nuts.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
26 Mar 2012 #46
Next time, please provide full quote or I might think that you try to distort reality to your liking.

Alligator, the fact remains that people in America say that certain newspapers "hate America" quite often and it is not prosecutable. This aged poet's statements would never have been prosecuted in America. The website you've linked to only included that ridiculous additional claim that "malice or hate" may make statements of opinion prosecutable because it is trying to drum up business for the law firms in its directory.

I am quite disappointed that, in my ancestral homeland, an old man has to pay a fine, because he stated his opinion regarding a newspaper, and I am even more disappointed that he could be imprisoned for not apologizing for stating this opinion! That is not how liberal democracies should be using their judiciary or their penal systems.
xzqbq7 2 | 104
26 Mar 2012 #47
it is hysterical lunacy to deprive someone of their freedom for mere words

No, it's creating a martyr.

When communist court sentenced great Polish writer Wankowicz to jail in 1960s, they never attempted to execute the order.
People say that Wankowicz on few occasions was seen knocking on the jail door requesting to take him in. They wouldn't.

So please go ahead, jail Mr. Rymkiewicz, this should inspire him to write a poem or two.
pawian 178 | 15,558
26 Mar 2012 #48
I am quite disappointed that, in my ancestral homeland, an old man has to pay a fine, because he stated his opinion regarding a newspaper,

Stop being impervious to reason, Des.

Alligator, in a very intelligent manner, is trying to explain certain things to you but you won`t listen. Wrong! Do you really need to add fuel to the myth of dumb Polams? Whose interest does it serve? :):):):):)

All states except Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, and Tennessee recognize that some categories of false statements are so innately harmful that they are considered to be defamatory per se. In the common law tradition, damages for such false statements are presumed and do not have to be proven.

Statements are defamatory per se where they falsely impute to the plaintiff one or more of the following things:[7]
Allegations or imputations "injurious to another in their trade, business, or profession"
Allegations or imputations "of loathsome disease" (historically leprosy and sexually transmitted disease, now also including mental illness)
Allegations or imputations of "unchastity" (usually only in unmarried people and sometimes only in women)
Allegations or imputations of criminal activity (sometimes only crimes of moral turpitude)


ehow.co.uk/how_6131277_sue-small-claims-court-illinois.html

the fact remains that people in America say that certain newspapers "hate America" quite often and it is not prosecutable. This aged poet's statements would never have been prosecuted in America.

We live in Poland, not US. Why don`t you accept it as an obvious fact?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation#Poland

In Poland, defamation is a crime that consists of accusing someone of a conduct that may degrade him in public opinion or expose him "to the loss of confidence necessary for a given position, occupation or type of activity". Penalties include fine, limitation of liberty and imprisonment for up to a year (Article 212.1 of the Criminal Code). The penalty is more severe when the offense happens through the media (Article 212.2).[63] When the insult is public and aims at offending a group of people or an individual because of his or their nationality, ethnicity, race, religion or lack of religion, the maximum prison term is 3 years.[64]

Rymkiewicz isn`t a private person. He publishes for far right papers where he spreads his slander.
Liberal newspaper wins media libel war
30.11.2011 15:51
An appeal court in Warsaw has ordered the right-wing Gazeta Polska newspaper to print a correction statement after libeling Adam Michnik, editor of leading liberal daily Gazeta Wyborcza.

The case relates to an open letter written by 76-year-old poet Jaroslaw Rymkiewicz which accused Gazeta Wyborcza of being tainted by communist ideology.
"Adam! Once, long ago, we were friends. Now you want to take me to court... because I wrote the truth: that you - you and your people - are the ideological heirs of Rosa Luxemburg," the poet declared, referring to the Polish-Jewish communist revolutionary.

Yesterday's ruling follows on from an earlier hearing this April, in which Gazeta Polska was ordered to publish material submitted by Michnik's lawyers.

However, the editorial office of Gazeta Polska declined to publish the texts, which led to this month's hearing.
Supporters of Rymkiewicz argue that the case represents the stifling of freedom of speech in Poland.

OP Ironside 50 | 11,142
26 Mar 2012 #49
The only thing that fails here is your logic.

Yeah ? keep talking ....

Freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to purposefuly lie and offend anyone, to violate someone's dignity.

Really ? would you like to apply that to countless articles of GW ?

The dignity of every human is also protected by Polish law. Therefore I praise the court for ruling against Rymkiewicz and for having the courage to speak the obvious (at least obvious for some on PF).

the case against Rymkiewicz is nonsense because such interpretation of the law would render all public debate impossible.
Basically you're saying that one can say anything as long as one doesn't offend somebody or his (defined by himself dignity).
Which is another nonsense because that would be opposite of free speech. Limits yes, lies, profanities, malicious untrue rumors, yes that is not free speech.

In politics and political debate such restraints should be even more relaxed!
That is especially true for GW - a newspaper that is so political and used frequently in the published articles opinions and point of view which given your interpretation of freedom of speech should be punishable by the law.

GW wrote that Kaczynski want to become dictator, falsify election and many more.
Politicians whose GW editors did not like, they never hesitated to claim those politicians are spiritual heirs of the Black Sotnia, or ayatollah.
Lets wage here :
- an individual speaking his mind about editors and political line of a newspaper
- A powerful newspaper, publishing its views in hundreds of thousands copies.
Who is more influential?
Both expressed their opinion (GW many times).
Who was punished ?
It appears that in practice GW can freely do the same for which Rymkiewicz had been punished. Seems that that would be a contrary to what the free speech is all about.

Your comments show that state and law doesn't mean much to you, unless they are on your side.

That is the pick of hypocrisy, you're accusing me of your own malady. Please write more in this tenor for everyone to see your utter contempt for law and justice.

This posts are written by a supporter of PiS, a party of declared state worshippers. I don't think that Poland needs such love ;/

What has it got to do with anything ? Did I ask you who do you support or which football team do you support ?That information is irrelevant to me but not for an utterly biased and political partisan like you.

Your first and uttermost loyalty is your clique. Not honor, not country, not law, not justice, not the truth but the clique. You don't ask yourself is he guilty or not but is he ours or not?.

You have no clue what free speech means and what freedom means and you never will, you are what I call a Soviet-Pole.A waste of space.

As I said, if the law is not on your side, then it is a bad law, isn't Ironside?

Not as an answer to you but to somebody who is reading this thread.
I think that the RCC in Poland because of historical facts needs protection against publicity stunts aimed at religion and against vulgar remarks uttered by talentless blond bimbos for no other reason than to be present on TV.

I have nothing against any opinion about the RCC expressed in a tactful manner and if the point of discussion is about some issue not winging.

It is amusing that you decided to defend Rymkiewicz The Hypocrite. I guess you founded common ground....

I'm not defending Rymkiewicz but I'm defending freedom in Poland which is clearly in danger.

Rymkiewicz asked by Piotr Rogowski

You still do not understand ! He (Rymkiewicz) can be right he can be wrong but he still has a right to express his opinion without prosecution. It is not a case for courts and that is what the court should state.

You clearly have no idea or do not grasp the concept of freedom of speech. You do not grasp the Polish spirit and Polish culture, you are spiritual alien !
pawian 178 | 15,558
26 Mar 2012 #50
I'm not defending Rymkiewicz but I'm defending freedom in Poland which is clearly in danger.

Nope, it isn`t.
Slanderers are sued in every democratic country, also in US. The fact they are nutters doesn`t exempt them from legal responsibility for what they do or say.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
26 Mar 2012 #51
We live in Poland, not US. Why don`t you accept it as an obvious fact?

Are you deranged? How can you claim that I do not accept the fact that you live in Poland? I am saying that Poland does not need laws to protect newspapers from the opinions of the public. Such laws are ridiculous. Read the following statement you made Pawain:

Even cranky old men have to learn that they need to be more careful.

Neither old men, nor anyone else in Poland, should have to be careful when expressing their opinions regarding a newspaper! Your claim, that they need to be careful of what they say, shows that you do not understand democratic freedom. Perhaps a youth spent living under a totalitarian system has warped your mind.
pawian 178 | 15,558
26 Mar 2012 #52
I am saying that Poland does not need laws to protect newspapers from the opinions of the public.

Wrong! Read my post above where I stated that Rymkiewicz isn`t a private person but works for an extreme right wing paper.

Neither old men, nor anyone else in Poland, should have to be careful when expressing their opinions regarding a newspaper!

Unless they are another paper`s journalists/editors.

Are you deranged?

I don`t think so.

What about you?

:):):):):):):)
OP Ironside 50 | 11,142
26 Mar 2012 #53
Why not let Poland`s Poles decide if their freedom is in danger or not? .... :):):):):):):)

Because I care ?
Why don't you cut amount of BS? Is that your argument? - weak!
pawian 178 | 15,558
26 Mar 2012 #54
pawian:
Why not let Poland`s Poles decide if their freedom is in danger or not? .... :):):):):):):)

Because I care ?
Why don't you cut amount of BS? Is that your argument? - weak!

Iron, don`t be so fast! :):):):) It isn`t what I finally posted! :):):):)

I do appreciate your concern for Poland. You are a real Polish patriot.

But let me assure you - we are doing fine. :):):):)
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
26 Mar 2012 #55
Wrong! Read my post above where I stated that Rymkiewicz isn`t a private person but works for an extreme right wing paper.

You are confused Pawain. Working for a newspaper does not exclude one from being part of the public.

Unless they are another paper`s journalists/editors.

Journalists and editors should have just as much freedom to express their opinions as does anyone else.

we are doing fine

Poland is not doing fine when the opinions of her citizens can be prosecuted in this manner. Wake up Pawain! Defend freedom of speech in Poland!
pawian 178 | 15,558
26 Mar 2012 #56
Working for a newspaper does not exclude one from being part of the public.

hmm, strange, but I dare to disagree. :):):):)

Journalists and editors should have just as much freedom to express their opinions as does anyone else.

Come on, you can`t really believe it. :):):)

Wake up Pawain! Defend freedom of speech in Poland!

DeSS, don`t be silly. :):):):) There is freedom of speech in Poland.

However, there is also freedom from slanderous accusations.
OP Ironside 50 | 11,142
27 Mar 2012 #57
There is freedom of speech in Poland.

As the example of Rymkiewicz's prosecution proved.
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
27 Mar 2012 #58
hmm, strange, but I dare to disagree.

Journalists are part of the public citizenry in all media not owned by the goverment. Dare to disagree but you are thereby disagreeing with the obvious.

Come on, you can`t really believe it.

Yes, I and other sane people around the world, believe that complete editorial freedom is part of freedom of the press and thus part of freedom of speech. This poet expressed his opinion of a newspaper. He did not commit prosecutable slander by any sane definition of the term slander.
sofijufka 2 | 191
27 Mar 2012 #59
Freedom of speech depends of who is speaking. Bartoszewski can rave freely about "dyplomatołki" and "bydło", call grief after the Smoleńsk "nekrofilia", Niesiołowski is free to call X "chory z nienawiści", "kłamca" etc but Rymkiewicz has to shut up....

As to the freedom of speech in media, I'm a journalist and I have seen this "freedom" at work.
pawian 178 | 15,558
27 Mar 2012 #60
This poet expressed his opinion of a newspaper.

Which was considered defamatory by the editors.

He did not commit prosecutable slander by any sane definition of the term slander.

That is your private opinion which I dare to disagree with. And the Polish court did, too.:):):):)

Freedom of speech depends of who is speaking. Bartoszewski can rave freely about "dyplomatołki" and "bydło", call grief after the Smoleńsk "nekrofilia", Niesiołowski is free to call X "chory z nienawiści", "kłamca" etc but

Why don`t you quote PiS leaders who abused their opponents? :):):):)

I'm a journalist

I dare to remain doubtful about this revelation. :):):):)


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