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Presidential elections 2020 - your opinions about campaign, candidates


amiga500 2 | 228
6 Jun 2020 #1,051
PiS cant decide what it is. They have multi personality disorder.

That is why they are so successfull, both electorally and until recently with the economy. Leftwing welfare policies with right wing values policies . see dw.com/en/poland-where-keynes-meets-jesus/a-48943007
cms neuf 1 | 1,852
6 Jun 2020 #1,052
Electorally it has been very successful - there is no denying its appeal.

The problem is the long-term sustainability of it. The taxes raised for the keynesian bit have to be paid by people who don't share the right wing values bit.

I would also suggest that keynesianism involves more than just flat handouts - rather investment in infrastructure and services.

And of course long term it leads to inflation and stagnant growth.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
6 Jun 2020 #1,053
Ah yes,

I'm talking about much recent events and you know it. It gained him a nickname, you ought to know it - Sewer Trzaskowski. lol

The paranoia exhibited and that its going to turn into the embarrassment of San Francisco

I bet that what they have thought in San Francisco too about 40 years ago.

o make them have a child of rape, of itself is simply the idea of a sick minded individua

No is not. In fact you don't understand principles that attitude is based upon. If you don't undersand it that makes your opinion worthless you just say what comes to mind like a fool.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
6 Jun 2020 #1,054
principles that attitude is based upon

that rapists should have children?
PolAmKrakow 1 | 590
6 Jun 2020 #1,055
@mafketis
That rape victims should be forced to have the child of a rapist and torture them for the rest of their lives? Yes. Sound policy there. Until its your daughter.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
6 Jun 2020 #1,056
Until its your daughter.

If she didn't want to have a rapist's child then she wouldn't have gotten raped...... so, yeah.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
6 Jun 2020 #1,057
hat rapists should have children?

oh and another brilliant fool hath spoken.

Sound policy there.

wow you are so conceit you don't even ask. You got it, you know it all you comic you...
amiga500 2 | 228
6 Jun 2020 #1,058
Yes there seems to be no middle ground on the LGBT and Abortion issues. Its bible fundamentailsm on one side and post modernist rubbish on the other. hence why Hołownia is appealing.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
6 Jun 2020 #1,059
hence why Hołownia is appealing.

For fence sitters. Well at least they feel a pain sooner or later.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
6 Jun 2020 #1,060
bible fundamentailsm on one side

how do you define 'fundamentalism'? where I'm from it's about interpreting the bible as literally as possible... and catholics mostly don't read the bible, so....

another brilliant fool hath spoken.

how so? explain how you think that rapists should not have (biological) children if you think pregnancies from rape should not be aborted.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
6 Jun 2020 #1,061
how you think that rapists should not have (biological) children

I think that is not an issue here isn't?

pregnancies from rape should not be aborted.

Should children responsible for sins of their parents? Is that what you claim? If not why don't you use your brains to make a real argument. IF you can that is.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
6 Jun 2020 #1,062
I think that is not an issue here isn't?

Of course it is...

Should children responsible for sins of their parents?

It should be eliminated before it becomes a child....
Crow 146 | 9,129
6 Jun 2020 #1,063
Please tell me that patriots have bigger chances. And, BDW, which do you believe is truly patriotic option in Poland. Enlighten me.

Is that brat Duda and PiS?
Ironside 50 | 10,940
6 Jun 2020 #1,064
Of course it is...

isn't ? Are you perhaps into your American reinvention namely eugenics? tsk .. no high moral ground there ..

It should be eliminated before it becomes a child....

Very authoritarian of you. You know once you start making judgments and assessment like that it is a slippery slop. For exmaple it could be said that all cripples should be eliminated.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
6 Jun 2020 #1,065
Very authoritarian of you. Y

Well this is of course dependent on the woman's choice (I thought you were smart enough to realize that, sadly..... no......) If she wants to have the rapist's baby then fine, she should (though I personally don't consider that choice particularly moral - the fewer rapist genes around the better). Where we differ is that I think she should not face the state monopoly on coercion to force her to give birth to a rapist's baby when she doesn't want to.

Something for you... good to know you're on the side of the rapists....

radionetherlandsarchives.org/war-rape-in-the-former-yugoslavia/
PolAmKrakow 1 | 590
7 Jun 2020 #1,066
@Ironside

Couldn't the same be said about denying women the opportunity of limited choice? Isn't that "authoritarian"? This isn't about stupid people getting pregnant and regretting it. This is about a criminal act being committed against another person and forcing that person, their entire family, friends, associates and others to be constantly reminded of the violent act. It is about that woman's mental health as much as her physical health.

This election is less about the moral fiber of each party and more about moving the country forward. Forward meaning strengthening schools, hospitals, and the economy after the virus. It is a simple fact that the more advanced economic countries spend more time and money on these things. If Poland is to ever realize its true potential, this has to be the direction taken, or young people will continue to leave.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
7 Jun 2020 #1,067
Well this is of course dependent on the woman's choice

Wouldn't that be nice and proper if that was the case. Unfortunately for you that child is not an object you can get rid off for your convince. Neither is guilty of any crime.

So in fact you propose to kill a child for the sin or sins of his/her father. Do you really what to revert to pre-Christian standard in morality or you are just a dunce that think you can make an exception here and there and still sail in this ship full of holes?

on coercion to force her to give birth to a rapist's baby

Wrong perception, thy shall not kill. Meaning stopping her from killing a human being period. Ah and only half of that baby is - figuratively speaking - rapist's. Your argument is very patriarchal.

good to know you're on the side of the rapists....

a low blow i.e. a cheap demagogic trick. tsk ..

It is about that woman's mental health as much as her physical health.

A well grounded research found that an abortion often has a detrimental effect on woman's mental and physical health. Beside nobody wants to force such a hypothetical woman to rise that child.

This election is less about the moral fiber of each party and more about moving the country forward.

Well, I wish that were true. Reality is somewhat more drab.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
7 Jun 2020 #1,068
you propose to kill a child for the sin or sins of his/her father

No... I want the mother to be able to have the fetus (which is not remotely conscious) killed if she thinks that's the optimal choice in that horrible situation.

stopping her from killing a human being

A trained medical professional would do the killing of a lump of non-sentient cells... (the abortion should be carried out as quickly as feasible after the rape of course)

What would you do in the Savita Halappanavar case? The baby had no chance at survival but because there was a heartbeat doctors were legally prevented from saving the mother's life... sick and twisted and completely immoral.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
7 Jun 2020 #1,069
I want

Nobody give a flying copulation what you want junior. You might be unaware but the world is not your playground and doesn't confirm to your whishes. What you in fact do regardless of your whishes is undermining a Christian moral principle of the sanctity of human life, once you succeed at undreaming it there is no way to control or to stop it. You personally might stop there but the next guy go further, reintroduction of slavery, children of lower classes as a source of body parts and sexual favors is all there luring around the corner and much more.

Nah, people will be reasonable and stop there where I will tell them.... is that your American ego speaking?

A trained medical professional would do the killing of a lump of non-sentient cells...

Somebody could as well justify elimination of your person in that way. After all it is all a question of perception.

from saving the mother's life...

Dude are you even Christian do you need to ask. IF there is life versus life situation than of course it is a question of choice up to her. If it is up to medics for some reason they should save the potential mother.

We are talking here fringe cases. All those are very rare 0,01%.
PolAmKrakow 1 | 590
7 Jun 2020 #1,070
@Ironside
You make a great point. We are talking about very rare cases, very controlled potential environment for these aborts to take place. I certainly understand your position, and I respect it. I disagree with it though. No amount of discussion will likely change either of our opinions. This is true throughout society as well. Which in my opinion is why the rules in Poland should not become more restrictive. It is a waste of time debating it politically, when the politicians should actually be doing something for the country.

I cam to Poland for many reasons. Namely though, I saw opportunity in the largest emerging economy in Europe. That economy was built on small business, not state owned or foreign corporations who have operations here. The small business owner has been decimated by this pandemic, and nothing has been done to help them. The street where the language school I attend is located on, now has 9 empty store fronts that before the pandemic had nice thriving small business operators. That is one street. In Katowice, Opole, Chorzow, Nowy Sacz, Nowy Targ, where I have been in the last two weeks, it is the same. This is a failure of colossal proportion on PiS part. It could have easily been avoided, and still nothing is being done.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
7 Jun 2020 #1,071
I certainly understand your position

The difference is you or I don't want to compel others to follow our dictates (if a woman wants to carry a rapist's fetus to term then she should) and he does want to force others to follow his position.

a failure of colossal proportion on PiS part.

He'll just make excuses for them, or say it's not important...

But yeah, I went shopping yesterday (and bought a jeans jacket so I can look like an unemployed bum) but the shopping center looked... devastated more closed/empty storefronts than still running in the middle of the downtown area in a formerly high foot traffic zone.

The problem is that supporting smaller businesses doesn't give opportunities for kickbacks and patronage and so the PiS establishment is uninterested...
Ironside 50 | 10,940
7 Jun 2020 #1,072
This is a failure of colossal proportion on PiS part.

Yep, you have a point here. They not very good at reviving economy and support of local businesses.

he difference is you or I don't want to compel others to follow our dictates

What a bull. All the rules, laws and norms are there to compel others to follow. That is the only way a society can function efficiently. You just don't like THIS particular norm and you make it sounds as same expression of a tyrannical oppression. Which is a nonsense. It is the same as all other laws, rules and norms aside the fact you don't like it. Is as much oppressive as a speed limit on a highway.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
7 Jun 2020 #1,073
Some polls:

Duda 42.7%
Trzaskowski 26,6%
Holownia 7,7%
K-Kamysz 7,4%
Bosak 6,9%
Biedroń 3,4%

==

Duda 43.1%
Trzaskowski 25.3%
Holownia 14.4%
Bosak 7,4%
K.Kamysz 6,8%
Biedroń 2.6%

Second round:

Duda: 51.1%
Trzaskowski: 48.9%

Duda: 50.4%
Hołownia: 48.9%

Duda: 50.9%
K.Kamysz 48.9%

Also, one electoral forecast has been published here - twitter.com/PersElection/status/1269330843673255937/photo/1 - showing a suggested path to victory for Trzaskowski. It raises some questions;

- Can Trzaskowski limit his losses in małopolska? He's not going to win there, but based on previous elections, he needs in excess of 40% to have a chance of winning overall. It's worth pointing out that this is a pretty big province in terms of number of electors - hence anything less than 40% means he loses there.

- Śląskie will be a huge battleground. The locals are furious over the abuse that they're getting over coronavirus outbreaks there, but Trzaskowski needs at least 53-54% to win the election. There is gossip that Trzaskowski collected 100,000 signatures in Śląskie alone, which if true, could be a sign of anger among Silesians.

- If mazowieckie can be turned orange, then it can compensate for losses further to the east.

There's also something else: for Duda, he should stop focusing on Eastern Poland and start focusing on limiting the damage in wielkopolskie and dolnośląskie. If he can push Trzaskowski towards a draw in dolnośląskie, he wins the election comfortably.

Still, the most important thing is that neither Trzaskowski nor Duda have landed any knockout blows over the last few days. Duda isn't slipping below 40%, nor is Trzaskowski getting above 30%.
PolAmKrakow 1 | 590
7 Jun 2020 #1,074
@delphiandomine
Great info. I was in Nowy Sacz yesterday, lots of advertising for Holownia and Kamysz. Lone Duda advertising outside of town was vandalized in a not so flattering way. I really dont think Malopolskie is the Duda stronghold that some think it is. Lots of angry people here over the economy and the way the pandemic was handled. Lots think that cities should have been locked down based on infection rates, and not the whole country. Not saying its right or wrong.

I take these polls with a grain of salt, I simply dont think they are accurate based on polling being inaccurate just about everywhere these days. That said, Kamysz is an interesting candidate. He may prove to be a big ally of who ever goes against Duda in the second round.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
7 Jun 2020 #1,075
All the rules, laws and norms are there to compel others to follow

But there's a lot of room for changing laws especially those that are far more based in religious particularism rather than any kind of ethical universalism. The moral status of fetuses is not a settled issue.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,721
7 Jun 2020 #1,076
Bosak will never will = ( I guess I'll have to settle for The Duda
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
7 Jun 2020 #1,077
One thing is becoming very clear to me: Trzaskowski is very cleverly planning his campaign trail. He's turning up in many places that are important for 21st century Poland, such as in Łopuszna (where ks. Tischner lived) - but also the very heart of PiS country.

Duda is making the exact same mistake as Komorowski made - he's sticking to rallies where he has huge amount of support and ignoring the swing areas.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
7 Jun 2020 #1,078
Duda is making the exact same mistake as Komorowski made

How much did Duda win in 2015 and how much did Szydło?

Also what about the idea that PiS sees the writing on the wall and kind of wants him to lose (while not making it toooo obvious) so they can blame the president for all their own failures?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
7 Jun 2020 #1,079
How much did Duda win in 2015 and how much did Szydło?

It's a good question. Szydło, despite being a highly irritating person at the best of times, put together a fantastic campaign for Duda then. This time round, it seems that he's in the same muddle that Komorowski was in then - he's preaching to the converted, while pissing off people in a variety of ways. The latest bonehead move seemingly invited inviting people to come from 100km away to some campaign event rather than locals, which makes no sense.

Some of

Also what about the idea that PiS sees the writing on the wall and kind of wants him to lose

I do wonder, you know. Kaczyński's entire political career has been full of very strange moves, and deliberately sabotaging Duda's campaign would be nothing unusual for him in the grand scheme of things. On the other hand, Duda losing to Trzaskowski would be the worst possible outcome, because they would find it nearly impossible to overturn the veto. As far as I can count, KO+Lewica+MN have the ability to block overturning the veto without even relying on the PSL or Konfederacja.

There is a possibility that Kaczyński is thinking along the lines of deliberately losing the election, then calling a snap election where Gowin's mob is given a simple choice to either join PIS or be thrown out of the lists. The idea would be to gamble that they could win a bigger majority (perhaps with Konfederacja) to then be able to overturn the Presidential veto and turn things back in their favour.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
7 Jun 2020 #1,080
Can Trzaskowski

He cannot win. The best he can hope for is to loose against Duda in the second round. Polls shmols,. Opposition kicked out the only guy that had a chance to challenge Duda - Kosiniak.

hat are far more based in religious particularism rather than any kind of ethical universalism.

Wrong. Ethical universalism of the west is based on Christian values. That what I'm talking about. I don't make argument based on religious study or the bible.

I'm talking here about an axiom. About sanctity of human life which you and people like you undermine.

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