Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia

Do you realise how much time elapsed between the plane being "safe" (to put it crudely) and the plane being doomed? We're speaking a matter of seconds. I can't be bothered to go and dig out the charts, but it's somewhere about 15 seconds, perhaps not even so much. You have to appreciate that perhaps he pushed the plane a bit further than he should have - which means that he had even less time to "fly away".

I think you don't seem to understand that in this situation, a minor mistake was fatal. It certainly explains why you keep posting nonsense about aviation.


Uh... he was flying a plane in highly stressful circumstances, where he knew that failing to land would bring embarrassment to his Commander in Chief. He had the Air Force boss in the cockpit, and the weather conditions weren't great either. To make matters worse, the airport had no ILS and he was having to land the plane based on incomplete information available to him. Stressful, yes. Mistakes happen when you're stressed, and the "window of opportunity" was tiny.

Now, compare this with investigators who have all the time in the world to analyse the evidence. It's just not comparable at all.


As I said - a patriot supports the country's authority. Either you support the investigators, or you're not a patriot. End of.


Plenty of pilots with impeccable credentials have made mistakes in the past. Nothing new there. They're only human.


I'm still wondering where you get the idea that I'm pretending to be Polish from. Have I ever said that I was Polish? Don't think so, sunshine.

But thank you for making it clear that you aren't a Polish patriot at all. After all, at least I support the authority of Poland's military.

Unfortunately, great pilots fly planes into the ground everyday. Tell me that any of you out there have never made a mistake in your lives. The difference, when your flight crew makes a mistake, you die. Think about that the next time you bitch and moan about ticket prices.

Well Sunshine I know you are not of Polish ancestry. You have already said that and I already knew that from day one without you saying that. But I do believe you said you were a citizen of Poland, paying taxes in Poland, etc, no?

And no technically I can not be a Polish patriot since I was not born in Poland, I was born in America. But I do have Polish Patriot sympathies. That's why I am not so quick to believe all the "Pilot error" allegations against this poor Polish pilot who isn't alive to defend himself. I believe this poor underdog Polish pilot with all his impeccable credentials should be defended and at least there be consideration that he be given the benefit of the doubt. Its not only the Polish patriot thing to do but its the MORAL thing to do. Especially with all the suspicious circumstances around this tragedy and the fact that it happened in a country that wrote the book on KGB deceptions. Literally.

But its nice to know that an average guy from Scotland like yourself takes this particular topic so so so so so SERIOUSLY. Yes I'm sure the average guy from Scotland feels this way about this particular tragedy LOL

Unless of course your ancestry is........

Paying taxes, yes. Residing in Poland, yes. Doing everything that people normally do in Poland, yes. I even have a Polish driving licence. But I'm not a Polish citizen. Never claimed to be :)


Well, none of us are directly blaming the pilot, because we have to wait for the accident report. But - even if he did fly the plane into the ground, it merely means he screwed up in a moment of high stress - can anyone really blame him? As I keep saying - the approach wasn't too bad at all, it was just in the final critical seconds that he apparently failed to react.

Tell me, do you know how common CFIT is?


I'm interested in aviation and saw the consequences of the accident first-hand. It's hard not to be interested in such a topic.

It took quite a while for the tasty morsels of 9/11 to get out and it's the same here. As I keep saying, I'm waiting for a smart person to put together a highly credible and cogent case for the anti-official line. There are quite a few fishy things and there is an element that delph is missing here. That of allegiances. It didn't come as a surprise that they are trying to get Russia under the NATO umbrella as they are trying to unite factions in one big structure. This is a one-world government start, fawning people under the guise of cooperation. PO party members and military personnel are looking for closer ties now. To rock the boat would be to go against the express desires of big guns in the world. Complicity is a must for them. The truth comes later.

No tasty morsels - just tasteless conspiracy theories.


Didn't take long, did it?

Tasteless my rear. There were many substantiated accounts from experts across the board. The government speculated so why can't others in a position to do so?

Long enough ;)

They do - the internet is full of such tripe, and most of it has seedy undertones.

I can't deny that. I was talking about quality films which explored various angles. I also didn't believe some of their averments but much of it seemed to be well thought through.

No Trust, no end game, it's that simple. The Russians will never tell you the truth about the plane crash, in fact they will turn any facts around and till you turn blue in the face and they will look you in the eye and say "WE ARE TELLING YOU THE TRUTH AND YOU BETER BELIVE IT"

Since the rest of the world don't give a **** it's up to the Polish patriots to get to the facts.

Personally, I don't care what the Russians say about the crash. But what the Poles say will be of great interest - unless of course, you're paranoid enough to believe that the Polish military will take part in a cover up.


Do I have to repeat myself?


A true Polish patriot will support the Polish military, and by extension, support the Polish investigators.

Since the rest of the world don't give a TURD! it's up to the Polish patriots to get to the facts.

Are you having problems understanding me?


The Polish investigators, as the Polish authority, are getting to the facts. Polish patriots should support them if they want to call themselves patriots.

Delph, they are told to tow the party line which, in this case, means being in bed with the Russian govt. Haven't you heard of party whips and containing dissident rebels? I'm not overly convinced by the conspiracy arguments but, nonetheless, you cannot get away from the reality of political operations insofar as they engage in sweep-under jobs.

International relations and opportunism are playing a bigger role here than getting to the heart of the matter. Poland is not France (an inquisitorial country to the max).

Not when some of the people involved in the investigation were hand picked by Lech Kaczynski.

Anyway, a patriot by definition should support their actions, regardless of their motive.

You have some good points Seanus.

Lets not forget that currently Poland (especially the current government) wants to improve relations with Russia. Which I think most people, including myself, thinks is a good thing. So this could lead to some complications here.

So given that dynamic and the fact that there was no love lost between the current Polish government and the Kaczynskis, maybe there is a human element where some in the current Polish government may not be as aggressive as they should be in tracking down all the leads in this investigation? It appears the Russian government has been leading the way in this investigation also.

To their credit, the Russian people showed a lot of genuine sympathy for Poland when this tragedy occured. This was not lossed on Poland and the Polish government. Many Poles rightfully appreciated Russia's support when Poland was at its low moment.

Putting all of the above dynamics together, its not outside the realm of possiblity that the current Polish government MAY not want to track down leads that would make Russia look bad. Many Poles and Russians have already said that if there are implications that Russia (the Russian Smolensk aircontrollers, airport personnel, primarily) is somehow guilty in this, that it would greatly hurt Polish-Russian relations that the Polish goverment has worked so hard to make better in recent years.

Also just because a prominent government official picks people to work for him, there are no gaurantees that those people will always be loyal to him. Especially if that prominent government official like Kaczynski, has picked many people.

In every country you have people who are appointed by somebody who later betray that person because they have to tow the line which is bigger then the person they are betraying.

That's the last thing they'd want to be remembered for. My own feeling is that they'd upset the Russians if they had to, but there simply isn't any mystery - it was just an accident.

No the Polish government doesn't want to upset the Russians and its not because they are afraid of the Russians. Its because they want to continue having better political and business relations with the Russians.

There is such a thing as realpolitik.

Who do you think will have an advantage in these new so called Polish & Russian relationship's?

Do you think people like Komorowski, who was jailed for his opposition efforts, would seek to cover up the truth about the death of a democratically elected President of Poland at the hands of Russians?

It's a pretty loaded accusation to make.

Something you seem to forget - political allies of Tusk/Komorowski died in that plane as well.

The current Polish and Russian leaders.

Delph, hand-picked by LK? Eh, news flash, he died in Smoleńsk! Or did you mean JK? It isn't a case of picking like in Russia where VP put himself in charge. Poland, as you know, is very procedural and the responsibility naturally falls on certain shoulders in official circles. Anything beyond that is lower-level committees or net-users to get to the heart of the matter.

No no, I can't remember exactly who, but certain people in the military were appointed by Kaczynski to their posts - which sadly, they now have to investigate his death.

Exactly, appointed based on objective criteria and skills/competences. You can still go against your leader when bigger games are at work. Those people are now under Tusk/Kommie and we all know how they work.

An aircraft of the same type has just run off the end of the runway in Moscow , thankfully only two people killed...

Seems one engine failed just after take off , another whilst in flight , and the remaining engine failed as it was landing...must have been a busy time for the pilot...?

Very strange to have all three engines fail in quick succession..must be a fuel or systems problem....?

Either way, apparently the pilot glided in from 9100 metres. If so - what a hell of a job to save so many lives!

The old Tu 154 is a tough old plane...a few months ago one ran off the runway in bad weather and hurtled into the forest..not too much damage to the aircraft...and nobody hurt...It had suffered total electrical failure , and was forced to land on a runway that was way too short for such an aircraft , as a result it shot off the end of the runway and went 180 meters into the forest....

The pilots and crew have been awarded medals...

Latest news from the Moscow crash...There is a rumour the crew may have forgotton to switch on the fuel pumps before taking off....oh dear...

To lose all three engines at the same time suggests to me fuel starvation to to lack of fuel , or contaminatd fuel...

I don't think they would have been able to start the engines without the fuel pumps on. Apparently they managed to relight one of the engines.

Has to be contaminated fuel then...either a bacterial contamination that turned the fuel to jelly , or water in the fuel that froze....

The crew did a pretty good job of getting the plane down wth so few casualties...they deserve a medal , unless of course it was their mistake that caused the engines to fail...?

I think Putin has gone off the boil on this topic. What did he really unearth? He didn't seem to encourage extensive debate on the various issues at all.

Please don't take this off topic