Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia

There are several reports that an NDB transmitter was located at a distance of 6 km from the runway, instead of the standard 4 km. Would that have anything to do with it, if the pilot was not aware? Or me big stupid again?

The remains of the presidential Tupolev

Beacons at Severny airport are arranged abnormally . Is it confused the pilot of the Tu- 154 ?

- Distribution of guiding beacon in front of the runway at Smolensk is a custom . If the pilot did not know , it could be the cause of the disaster - says, " Romans " were military pilot from Smolensk . He argues that the system of beacon NDB is the only guide system on Severny airport .

I'm sorry Olga but I don't buy that theory - there's no "standard" NDB distance. Often it's pretty close, especially on military fields but some NDBs are located right on the field, others a mile, two or more away from it. In a nutshell a small beacon station is built somewhere near a field, preferably aligned with the runway (but not always), it's measured, calibrated and then the approach is built based on the actual location and charts are printed. Often it's simply about the topography (a hill is better than a valley, etc.) and land ownership. Let's be suspicious without becoming paranoid.

Could be many things but I still see no signs of a conspiracy Olga.

Hey, I didn't make this up... Did you actually read the articles? Both a military pilot and a flight instructor are quoted. What "theory"?

I did Olga and maybe I should've explained it a little better. To blame it on an NDB station being in an unusual location would be equivalent to saying, I can't believe the cars are driving on the left side of the road here, it's ALWAYS on the right side everywhere else. There's a reason why we use charts and approach plates for each flight no matter how familiar we are with the airport - we don't EVER want to get too familiar to something. It's better to verify with the actual charts/plates.

To quote this article:

"...Jeśli pilot o tym nie wiedział i orientował się na standardową odległość, a w konsekwencji wybrał standardową trajektorię podejścia do lądowania, mógł znaleźć się na wysokości kilku metrów nad ziemią już w odległości 1,5 - 2 km od lotniska..."

How could they not know? That's why we always use charts. I've been to JFK and Shanghai airports hundreds of times and I know the localizer and other frequencies by heart but I still pull out the charts. This was a non-precision approach - even more reason to use charts. If you use them then the "standard" position of an NDB becomes irrelevant - you simply use what you see on the chart and verify it with what you receive from the station (your bearing).

I see the point they're trying to make but I doubt it. ...and IF that would be the actual reason it'd reflect very poorly on the pilots because in a nutshell it means they would've flown based on "past recollections and standard assumptions" and not actual charts. Sorry, that doesn't sound logical at all. Those were professional pilots, I'll wait for the official findings.

PS.
Hope my explanation makes more sense now.

Wroclaw has two lined up with the runway, one 1.2km from the threshold, and a second 7km from the threshold...The VOR is way off in no mans land.

Skysoulmate:
Yep, it does--thanks. I was wondering if you've heard this, and what you make of it:

I know it's only a 24 second excerpt, but I'd be interested to hear your take on it.

Nothing particularly interesting there. Question still remains as to why they descended below minimums. That's only a call that the crew can make, controllers have nothing to do with it.

Reports grow ever more conflicting. Some say that the investigation is becoming a little too one-sided for their liking. I think we are going to see sth similar to the Omission Report that we saw in 2003/2004 after 9/11. Full of half-truths and fine cuts.

I'm reading this thread and I cannot help thinking that everyone is just making up those spy thriller stories not to admit to themselves that what happened was simply an example of stupidity and lack of common sense. Things happen to people. Bad things happen to stupid people. Obviously, as a nation, Poland cannot stand up and say to everyone else, Ok, we messed up and killed half our our government in a dumb accident. No, there needs to be KGB involved, and the mafia, and neo-nazis, and Americans. Who knows, maybe even Mexicans! Give me a break! Oh, wait, yes, the laptop disappeared! That proves it! You know the laptop would disappear if the plane crashed over any other country, and probably even quicker if it crashed in Poland.

you have 0 proof, next

the laptop would be safe in mexico, unless it was made out of drugs

Where, oh, where do you get your information from? The plane was only 20 years old, BUT had recently (in December, in fact) undergone work in Russia involving navigation and electronics, among other things, AND only had 130 flight hours on it since the work was completed. Please, the bumper party's calling...

ok i get the sarcasm but these planes land in and out of siberia in way worse circumstances with plane loads of people who are NOT as important heh.

Only 20 f-ing year old Russian plane… You gotta grow pot in your backyard too I bet. WTF does it mean 20 year old piece of sihit Russian plane? Is that equivalent to acceptable in your opinion? What would you say if Obama died in a plane crash with all of the military chiefs and half of congress? I would laugh my as$ off because it just seems unreal.

Right on, that's exactly what they were built for. But there's too many morons who would spew BS as it suits them.

not with a president on board of the plane.. lol

I've heard of people crash-landing in Alaska on a iceberg too, you know. I have never heard of the whole government DYING on the same day.

Give me one example of a civilized country where the government got wiped in one day.

We're truly making the history here!

I'm so proud to be Polish with you guys on board.

Their flying on one plane isn't what caused the crash.

I'm sure they do, and I'm sure the president's plane wasn't the first of it's kind to crash either. It's precisely because there aren't any important people on board that we don't hear of those, so they don't come to mind as a reality check. I bet Russia could be posting daily statistics on soviet-era flying deathtraps crashing somewhere between Moscow and Vladivostok.

I say Russians should start selling those old planes to Montana. If they run so well, maybe they would make good family vehicles. Although it would still be probably illegal to have sheep in the cabin without a chaperone.

out of some 23-30 crashes in the tup's life some three were due to mechanical error.

then you have alot of the black sea crashes, i can find these sources if need be

the plane has a history of "accidents" over russia theres no doubt about that.

What needs to be explained is why the pilot attempted a maneuver like that in the first place. He seemed to duck low and he had a bailout option which he didn't take.

An objective, expert examination of the plane's remnants would have been a good start, which is probably too late, as Russia has had plenty of time to cover its tracks.

There needed to be open access from the outset and there wasn't. Cover-ups can be exposed but nobody wants to see the truth anyway. This is why governments can get off with virtually anything if they want to.

Well, not all governments, but certainly Russia would be one of them. Poland is wedged in a tough spot.

The government didn't get wiped out. In fact, calling the President "government" is a bit of a misleading description, because the President has no executive power and can only do things on the basis of what the Government (which is headed by the Prime Minister) recommends. I'd also hardly call the boss of the IPN and NBP "government".

It would be more accurate to say that the top military command was killed - but as always, with military situations, there was deputies ready and waiting to take control.

So - the guy was obliterated in the crash. Don't you think that there's a possibility that the laptop was equally destroyed?

Very interesting. Did the controller say 8km and haze? If so, they definitely had plenty of visibility to attempt the approach but from what I've seen from the video the visibility was much less than that... However, isn't "dimka" fog? The textual translation says haze but in aviation terminology there's a huge difference between haze and fog. Either way, if he said the visibility was 8km (which is surprising based on the video) they're definitely legal to attempt the approach.

The 744 must be the altimeter setting which Russians sometimes will give you in millimeters of mercury. Don't have my manuals but an online calculator shows 744 mm Hg to be equivalent to 1031.9 hPa which in turn is 30.48 inches of mercury. Is that right? Wow that's some pretty high pressure we're talking about...

It's very brief but basically it sounds like they were "legal" for the approach and the altimeter setting was pretty high but that's based on the atmospheric pressure...

It's so eery to hear this pilot's voice. :(

The comments for this video are just sad. ...they killed them because Poland was against the EU, against Russia, against H1N1 vaccine, against the Jews, and on and on...

That's what I thought, too :(


Sadly, if 8km of visibility is accurate, then the conspiracy theorists will run wild :(

Yep, that's precisely why it grabbed my attention. That visibility seems to be confirmed on another video, if you look closely. It's the one with the boys and their camera. Along with attendees at the time. I have an article somewhere in Polish, quoting an official or a reporter (can't remember) that skies were sunny and blue.


So, I take it you're for misinformation and coverups?


Odd thing is, there was no explosion and the plane itself didn't burn. Only a couple of small fires away from the plane. At least 21 bodies were identified with DNA.

Well, if that visibility was as great as 8 km they'd never gotten this close to the ground because they'd have seen the trees and other obstacles. When we're in visual conditions if we see things that do not correspond to our instruments we don't just keep descending simply because the instruments tell us to. If it makes no sense we go around.

To me the visibility in the video was a mile or less but that means nothing Olga. There could be fog literally 500 yards away and we wouldn't be able to recognize it unless you were coming in/from that direction.

I'll tell you a pilot secret. Before the actual approach starts we don't really care (I'm exaggerating to make a point) what the visibility is as long as it's legal for us to start the approach. As long as the conditions are legal for the approach we can start it and then if it suddenly drops to zero we can still continue all the way to the minimums and if we still don't see the runway we go missed (go-around). Occasionally, you'll hear things like "Delta xyz, runway 36 visibility is 1200 rvr, say intentions." "Uhm, we need 1800rvr for this approach." "Roger, uhm, the current visibility just improved, it's now 1800rvr, you're clear for the approach..." ;)

At that point the approach can be initiated and we descend to our minimums and go missed if no runway is in sight (this example was for a precision approach, slightly different for non-prec. approach). I don't want to give you the wrong impression but what I'm trying to emphasize is that it's the actual approach that matters, not the "legal" part before it.

In this case they were lower than they should've been (from what I've seen so far) - so the question isn't really why they started the approach, it's actually somewhat irrelevant. The question is why were they so low?

So far the possible reasons I've seen was incorrect altimeter setting (MANY ways to screw that up), instrument errors, situational disorientation, engine loss close to the ground, numerous engine flame-outs due to bird strikes, etc, etc. We'll have to see what they find out.

I'd download that video though just in case. RT has been yanking anything that would raise suspicion, including the original interview with the boys (the one without the commandos standing right behind them).

I see, thanks for clarifying... Well, it's conceivable to speculate that if the airplane hit the trees (which it looks like it did) it's very possible that at one point it broke apart and certain parts could've fallen away from the fire... I've seen some gruesome ntsb investigation pictures and you just never know exactly how an airplane or the different parts will disintegrate...

i wouldn't like to feed cospiracy theories with this post.. i actually think it was just an accident and hope there will be clear evidences supporting this.

Just asking for opinions!
I found an italian article + video about these creepy theories..



english spoken

here's the italian arcticle, adds few things to the video..


ambientalismodirazza.blogspot.com/2010/04/le-elite-polacche-sono-state-rapite-ed.html
(full arcticle can be fairly translated with things such as google translator)

Except that i don't believe West and Russia would really have such a big problem with Poland to risk such a dangerous action..
what about the bodies? could it really be an possible theory? Didn't president Lech phone at his twin few minutes before the landing approach?

And what about the russian control tower giving wrong infos to the pilots in order to make the plane crash..? possible? What's your opinions?

also, sorry if these stuff were already been discussed, i may have skipped some previous post :x