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Poles say a big YES to our European Union


Novichok 1 | 2,749
6 Jan 2021 #601
Although many Polish people I know see the EU for what it is - a communist superstate in the making.

But the lure of easy money is irresistible. A truly principled attitude...
cms neuf - | 1,579
6 Jan 2021 #602
Well we do remember the days when the Soviets were telling us how to organize our economy - queuing for ugly shoes at 5am in winter.

We know bitter Cuban oranges are a luxury only given to you guys in victory day but since joining the EU we get fat Spanish ones, we don't have to stand in line and we don't need any stupid coupons for them
Spike31 2 | 2,224
6 Jan 2021 #603
I guess we'll never know

It was a rainy day in the big city of Wachock. @mafketis lit up a ciggy and attempted to cross the road. He got hit by a speeding car and died.

Therefore, he died because he was smoking cigarettes.

Conclusion #2: If he ate an apple that day instead of smoking a ciggy he may have survived. We'll never know ;-)
cms neuf - | 1,579
6 Jan 2021 #604
Right. What is your explanation for the dramatic increase in living standards since 2004 in Poland, Czech, Hungary etc and why didn't it happen in Moldova or Ukraine or Serbia ?
mafketis 25 | 9,323
6 Jan 2021 #605
Therefore

Exactly.... you look at different correlations (one of which is probably related to the cause). Simply saying 'correlation does no imply causation' and leaving it at that makes looking for patterns impossible.... who does that benefit?
cms neuf - | 1,579
6 Jan 2021 #606
People dying of cigarettes in Poland - about 50.000 a year
People dying the instant that they ignite a cigarette - zero
People killed by speeding cars in bad weather - about 1000 a year

You keep using stupid examples to prove your point
Spike31 2 | 2,224
6 Jan 2021 #607
who does that benefit?

I've demonstrated a logical fallacy in action.

And I used an alternative version of @mafketis who lives in a big city of Wachock, that doesn't exist [yet?]. So if you get an ankle sprain skiing this winter or something I don't want to be accused that I caused it by my post on this forum :-)

PS: Here's a list of common logical fallacies that you may find beneficial (the list, not fallacies ;-)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Formal_fallacies
mafketis 25 | 9,323
6 Jan 2021 #608
a logical fallacy in action.

So the existence of grooming gangs (like Rotherham) and Pakistani immigration to the UK have nothing to do with each other?

Not the stance I would have expected you to take.... but interesting idea....
Spike31 2 | 2,224
6 Jan 2021 #609
So the existence of grooming gangs (like Rotherham) and Pakistani immigration to the UK have nothing to do with each other?

You're not making much sense here.

That's a criminal case with evidence and multiple trials in British courts. It had a whole group of Pakistani immigrants convicted for multiple cases of rapes and false imprisonment of underaged girls.

I really don't get what's your point here.

PS: For those who don't know about the subject:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
mafketis 25 | 9,323
6 Jan 2021 #610
I really don't get what's your point here.

you're ridiculous dismissal of the idea that EU membership has helped improve living standards in Poland....
Spike31 2 | 2,224
6 Jan 2021 #611
I simply stated:

That's a rookie mistake. Correlation does not imply causation.

You know what, you usually make much more sense since you are one of the more logical thinking pf members. We'll continue our discussions when you cool off a bit.
mafketis 25 | 9,323
6 Jan 2021 #612
You know what

I'm a cucumber....
rtfm 1 | 42
6 Jan 2021 #613
Pawian - for sure the EU wants to be an empire and I do think it is communist in its nature. Pushing mismatching economies into a single currency (handy for German exports) and the desire for an EU army for example are signs to me of that desire and of what the EU is working towards.

I hope I'm wrong and the EU is really just this benevolent well meaning organisation rather than the giant pissing money up the wall, power grabbing corrupt pile of poop it appears to be.
pawian 176 | 15,325
6 Jan 2021 #614
for sure the EU wants to be an empire

I don`t think so. The last expansion was in 2013 and now potential candidates are in a sort of a freezer and it seems there is no political will to allow them entry. Old EU countries are sick and tired of dealing with law breakers like Poland and Hungary so accepting new members is out of question for years, if not decades.

Therefore, I don`t panic like you that Poles will soon get disappointed with the EU when it expands.

power grabbing corrupt pile of poop it appears to be.

hahaha funny wording.
Novichok 1 | 2,749
6 Jan 2021 #615
the EU is really just this benevolent well meaning organisation rather than

No bureaucracy is ever "benevolent". Look at NATO. They are malignant tumors that need to grow or die. Does anybody remember the USSR? The US is just a step behind.
cms neuf - | 1,579
6 Jan 2021 #616
It's ludicrous and even insulting to be here in Poland and compare the EU to communism

I have never encountered someone Polish who knew communism who would make that comparison.

When Poles do complain it's either about immigration or bureaucracy.

As for NATO, well it's not so bad - it would prevent Russia from trying to illegally occupy other countries, just like it illegally occupies Crimea.
Novichok 1 | 2,749
6 Jan 2021 #617
just like it illegally occupies Crimea.

Don't you know that NATO is assembling 10 divisions and a flotilla of something to take Crimea back? So, don't feel bad. NATO will show those bad Russians...

I have a better idea... Sue them in Hague. Or pass a resolution at the UN. That should do it.

Poland will be so proud to teach bad Ruskies a lesson.
Crow 147 | 9,309
6 Jan 2021 #618
You suggest it is an empire like Russia?? hahaha

One may like Russia or not but one must be aware of one thing. And the same goes for any other Slavic country.

That is, Russia stays in direct continuity with native European culture and language. EU, as it is formed and as it is, only can claim to originate from same native Europe but, the EU lost the direct cultural and linguistic link and actually embraces non-European tradition and even force non-European genetics of its subjects. Actually, when we look at the genesis of EU trends we notice a very early clear Semitic line along with the complete tradition of western Europe. Sure, one may say that Semitic and Asian influences were and are present in Central and Eastern Europe, in Eurasian parts of Russia. But still, those were forced incursions to which people/culture stood and resisted, while in the case of western Europe, via Romans and their cultural descendants, Semitic influences are welcome and embraced willingly. As I say that trend can be followed for already 2500 years.
mafketis 25 | 9,323
7 Jan 2021 #619
It's ludicrous and even insulting to be here in Poland and compare the EU to communism

youtube has bunches of great old news clips from the nightly tv news in the 1980s.... anyone who says that things were better 'za komuny' or who wants to compare the EU to a communist empire should be forced to watch them....

youtube.com/watch?v=VS3YGAuSv1g
pawian 176 | 15,325
7 Jan 2021 #620
I have never encountered someone Polish who knew communism who would make that comparison

Nationalists do. Korwin Mikke, for example, all the time.

But how many nationalists do you know personally in real life??? I knew one but that was 20 years ago.
cms neuf - | 1,579
7 Jan 2021 #621
Tight t shirt wearing amphetamine taking nationalists - I know 3 or 4, plus a few down the gym that I am on nodding terms with

Older people with mildly nationalist views - lots

Weird PiS types - maybe 20 or 30 though they are disappearing form Warsaw business circles or at least not vocal about their views.
Novichok 1 | 2,749
7 Jan 2021 #622
I have never encountered someone Polish who knew communism who would make that comparison.

Normal people wouldn't know it was communism because what Poland had was not communism. We just use this word to refer to the pure evil that the real communism would be.

What they do know is that everything important in life was free. And that they were making just enough not to starve. Freedom of speech was never on their minds and the freedom to travel abroad was out of reach financially, even if allowed.

I know 3 or 4, plus a few down the gym that I am on nodding terms with...

Another meaningless bs line. Nodding is not enough to know their political views in any depth beyond "I am for it" or "I hate it". The same with this crap:

Older people with mildly nationalist views - lot

Just a mental fart. How many did you interview? Or did you just overhear one of them say, "those damn immigrants"?
pawian 176 | 15,325
7 Jan 2021 #623
because what Poland had was not communism

But you always happily repeat that you escaped from a communist country.
Novichok 1 | 2,749
7 Jan 2021 #624
But you always happily repeat

Oh, that famous reading comprehension...Read 622 again - s l o w l y.
Lenka 3 | 2,561
8 Jan 2021 #625
And what IS christian?
kondzior 12 | 1,245
8 Jan 2021 #626
I do like proper Monarchy myself. Where the king is tied to the land, feels and acts responsible for it and its denizens and can occasionally be killed.

Poland from before the zabory, the Rzeczpospolita Szlachecka may be also example to look up to.
pawian 176 | 15,325
8 Jan 2021 #627
feels and acts responsible

Unless he is nuts, like that George who lost America..

the Rzeczpospolita Szlachecka may be also example to look up t

Of course not. The cowardly king Stanislaw August didn`t want to fight and surrendered Poland to Russians, forfeiting 3 May Constitution and all his reforms coz the result was the second partition, soon followed by the third. And few other controvercial Polish kings aren`t really an example to follow.

That is why reasonable people invented democracy and republic to avoid such situations when one loser decides about everything. .
Novichok 1 | 2,749
8 Jan 2021 #628
No. Once elected, one loser decides everything, including dragging a nation into wars. "Democracy" and elections are just a circus for the naive.
As one wise man said: If elections mattered, they would be illegal.
There is no cure for the naive Civics 101 suckers.
Lenka 3 | 2,561
8 Jan 2021 #629
Rzeczpospolita Szlachecka may be also example to look up to.

Ok...

Once elected, one loser decides everything, including dragging a nation into wars

King does the same just without being elected...
pawian 176 | 15,325
8 Jan 2021 #630
As one wise man said

Yes, I know that saying from one of my textbooks.

But I also know another one: democracy has multiple faults and shortcomings, but it is still the best system that people invented. Or sth similar. Do you know who said it, without googling???

So, it is a saying against a saying. Draw?? hahaha


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