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Poles say a big YES to our European Union


Spike31 3 | 1,624
12 May 2020 #421
@mafketis

China may be a threat to its neighbours in Asia but not to Poland. They are interested in cooperation with Central Europe in building a new Silk Road (Belt and Road Initiative) in an attempt of breaking an economic blockade which America and Britain can impose on them at any time by blocking ocean trade routes leading out from SE Asia.

And Russia is still entraped in a cold war Zbigniew Brzezinski* doctrine, a Polish-American US security advisor, who entraped them in Afgan War (so called Soviet Vietnam).

They are surrounderd by NATO bases and no matter what they do they will loose in the long term: if they remain quiet - like until 2008 - they will slowly loose their sphere of influence. And if they act agressive like in Georgia and Ukraine they will show their violent face to the world and can expect retaliation from the Western World.

So Putin may look like a savvy politician on TV screen but he is holding a loosing hand and no amount of bluffing will help him.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski
mafketis 23 | 8,381
12 May 2020 #422
Asia but not to Poland

It's a threat to Australia, Italy and Canada.... why would they spare Poland (unless Poland simply has nothing they want)?

a Polish-American US security advisor, who entraped them in Afgan War

That is certainly a chapter that begs for re-examination, no matter what else the Soviet Union was or did they were in the right in Afghanistan in trying to bring something like civilization to a bunch of deranged mountain goat fvkc3rs...

I've heard from more than one source that Afghan students studying in Russia and other Iron Curtain countries were all on the soviet side - they knew how messed up Soviet communism was but _still_ thought it was a vast improvement on Afghan culture which is incredibly violent and ugly.

Oh and the people BrzeziƄski backed took exactly the wrong message - it wasn't "God bless the USA for helping us get freedom" it was "with Allah in our side all the world fears our power!" which was a directly pipeline to 911....
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
12 May 2020 #423
why would they spare Poland (unless Poland simply has nothing they want)?

From a Russian perspective, the current situation in Poland probably suits them perfectly. Chaos and disorder is perfect for a Kremlin-backed party to emerge offering a 'new solution', after all. From the Chinese perspective, PiS are spending everything and leaving nothing in the piggy bank, which makes them a perfect target for 'cheap' infrastructure loans.

they knew how messed up Soviet communism was

I imagine that it was quite seductive for educated Afghans, as the Soviets were deep into the 'cult of technology' by that point. Probably the benefits of Soviet life, including a stable political environment and a somewhat stable country were probably far preferable to sharing a goat with ten cousins round the back of Uncle's house.

(have you read Midnight in Chernobyl? It gives a very fascinating insight into how the Soviets by the 70's/80's had become a bizzaro-world where technology and technological advances had replaced religion).

I do find it interesting how the USA apparently learnt nothing from the Soviet attempts to bring Afghanistan under control.
Crow 139 | 8,583
12 May 2020 #424
I only hope Poland rather look in Belgrade than in Moscow. I also hope Russia tolerates our unique interests. I think they would or may lose everything. We all may lose if Russians are greed.

So comes China to support Hungarian-Serbian deals. The USA and Russia seams content with it. The Vatican also accepted it. Probably expect unity of Christianity and then to profit on it, you can imagine.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
13 May 2020 #425
They are interested in cooperation with Central Europe in building a new Silk Road....

So...Poland is no longer the defender of Europe but the mole?
Spike31 3 | 1,624
13 May 2020 #426
Just because Poland, and the rest of Central Europe, has this option doesn't mean it is going to be used. But it certainly helps at the negotiating table

Poland should be the defender of Poland and Polish interest first and foremost. Historically speaking defending Europe never paid off
Torq 32 | 2,999
13 May 2020 #427
Historically speaking defending Europe never paid off

What? Saving Austria (and Europe) in 1683 really paid off - European countries were very grateful to us, and remained our friends forever. Also, saving Europe from the Soviet flood in 1920 definitely paid off - Germans were really grateful and didn't invade us 19 years later, and other Europeans were so grateful that after WW2 they didn't even want to hear about selling us to the very same Soviets we saved them from. That's why we should ALWAYS help Europe and defend Europe!

No...

...wait a minute.
Miloslaw 7 | 3,259
13 May 2020 #428
@Spike31
@Torq
Yeah, Poland in future should only look after its own interests.
No good has ever come from Polands attempts to help others.
Torq 32 | 2,999
13 May 2020 #429
Yeah, Poland in future should only look after its own interests.

Not "only", but mainly (as every other country in the world).
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
13 May 2020 #430
Lets' not pretend that the Polish-Soviet war was an Polish attempt to "help others" for historical' accuacys' sake. Poland wanted to take land from the Soviet Union, that is all there is to it.
Torq 32 | 2,999
13 May 2020 #431
Lets' not pretend that the Polish-Soviet war was an Polish attempt to "help others"

No, but we did help others in the process, right? :) Battle of Warsaw was called 18th most important battle in world history for a reason...

thefirstnews.com/article/the-miracle-on-the-vistula-1698

Poland wanted to take land from the Soviet Union, that is all there is to it.

What? You must surely realise that Red Army was on a blitzkrieg, trying to "liberate" Europe, and Poland was supposed to be merely the first obstacle.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
13 May 2020 #432
No, but we did help others in the process, right? :)

I am sure, many Ukrainians (and others) appreaciated that they did not have to live in the SU during the Holodomor, but that was just an unintented and unforseeable side-effect.

blitzkrieg, trying to "liberate" Europe

That was hardly the case. What became later the SU was at this point still caught in a civil war, and in no position to threaten the rest of Europe. This purely a war of conquest, intented to stabilize the newborn Polish republic. There are lots of statements of Piludski and other Polish generals and politicians about the aim of this war. I am not condemning this mind you, Poland acted out of understandable self-interest. But let us not glorify this as a second siege of Vienna.

Battle of Warsaw was called 18th most important battle

According to this autor perhaps. I could think of at least 50 battles of greater importance for European history, let alone world history. No doubt this battle was important for Poland, but the only tangible consequence for other countries was that it gave later Hitler a rope to hang Poland with and make a deal with Stalin.
Spike31 3 | 1,624
13 May 2020 #433
No doubt this battle was important for Poland

It was important for Europe. Germany was on a brink of revolution and Bolshevik Red Army was marching with a torch to light it up and to move forward. Lenin and politbiuro were very open about it.

Poland has stopped that. So now you can say "thank you kindly" cause you owe us. No worries, it's not going to be added to the ongoing bill for WWII ;-).
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
14 May 2020 #434
Lenin and politbiuro were very open about it.

They talked a lot like all socialist revolutionaries did, but realistically speaking, they were far from capable of doing so. Poland did offer them an opportunity to expand westwards with this war, but they made up for it by stopping them at Warsaw.

to the ongoing bill for WWII ;-).

You can add as much to a settled bill as you want. Feel free to add interest for the partitions of Poland if it makes you feel any better. ;) A forum like this is a good place to blow off steam. No harm in his, since our politicians are wise enough to leave those things buried where they should be.
Spike31 3 | 1,624
14 May 2020 #435
Poland did offer them an opportunity to expand westwards with this war

Poland was the only stumbling block on their way back then. 1920 Germany was soft as cheese and would be cut easily by the Red Army.

No harm in his, since our politicians are wise enough to leave those things buried where they should be.

Whether Germany pay on or is not that important to me. What's important is that Realpolitik dictates that a country should use every tool at disposal and every oportunity to leverage its vital interests.

And since German criminal nazi past is your soft side it should be used effectively as a political tool. It can also be used to create scepticism towards Germany in domestic politics which can be utilized in many ways. We've got less to loose than you - since our relations are not symmetrical - and much more to gain.

I stand by my opinion that from geopoltical point of view Germany is the biggest threat to an econo-political independence of Poland. And I will not change my opinion unless geopolitical situation of Poland change.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
14 May 2020 #436
And I will not change my opinion unless geopolitical situation of Poland change.

You mean till you, with the help of a real big power shovel, dig out the whole of Poland and transport it to somewhere else with nicer neighbours? ;)

...and why are we all up now at this ungodly hour???
Spike31 3 | 1,624
14 May 2020 #437
You mean till you, with the help of a real big power shovel, dig out the whole of Poland and transport it to somewhere else

Geopolitics is more than just that. Many things can affect geopolitics in Central Europe. For example:

Steady economic growth and Polonization of vital branches of economy like banking, mass media, energy industry. This could be done by adopting similar law as Germany has to protect their economy to silence all the potential criticism coming from the EU. There's no point of reinventing the wheel here.

Poland could also leverage the potential of underdeveloped CEE region and Balkans. Which is being done with Via Carpathia highway project and gas pipeline to Croatia. 3SI is also part of it.

And obviously a millitary power which would guarantee a potential military agression on Poland to be completely unprofitable.

And also by not allowing the US army and the American presence to be pushed out of Europe, which was tried already by France and Germany.
mafketis 23 | 8,381
14 May 2020 #438
German criminal nazi past is your soft side it should be used effectively as a political tool

The more likely short term effect is to convince Germans to get over it at which point it stops being an effective political tool and becomes a liability for those who try to use it....
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
14 May 2020 #439
which was tried already by France and Germany.

What are you talking about? There are few countries who want the USA to stay in Europe as much as Germany. The American presence in Europe has been vital for German interests since Adenauer.
KorkiTaczer - | 62
14 May 2020 #440
The American presence in Europe has been vital for German interests

A rather love-hate relationship with hate taking over in recent years.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
14 May 2020 #441
There are few countries who want the USA to stay in Europe as much as German

There are warm relations between all EU states and the US. Germany especially benefits from the export market, and of course military spending.
Spike31 3 | 1,624
14 May 2020 #442
There are few countries who want the USA to stay in Europe as much as Germany.

Well, you've got no other choice but to "welcome" the US Army since it's there since 1945.

I was referring to Franco-German project of building so called EU army which we already discussed last year. Macron has said that: "We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America."

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46108633
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #443
Well, you've got no other choice but to "welcome" the US Army since it's there since 1945.

East Germans have always big fans of the US Army in Germany, believe me! They would even had wished for their occupation zone a bit bigger..

And bevor Trump there was Obama...a true love story with the Germans...and I can remember Clinton playing his saxophon at the Brandenburger Tor! And who could forget cold war hero Reagan or Kennedy and his famous speech in Berlin...

That the EU is working now on it's own defence is a reaction of Trump wanting to go it "alone" and becoming hostile to the EU....but he will be gone after another 4 years at most...so..
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #444
So you will have another US president kicking you in 'ze ass'... You can't be possibly thinking that they will sponsor your country for ever ;) Cold War is long gone, they don't need to feed you anymore
Joker 1 | 1,574
15 May 2020 #445
You can't be possibly thinking that they will sponsor your country

If the Euros were smart they would follow the example set forth by Brexit. The EU is crumbling and everyone knows it, yet there are still a few that want to cling on.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #446
they don't need to feed you anymore

Feeding? What feeding???

If the Euros were smart they would follow the example set forth by Brexit.

What's smart about that? Free to make treaties on their own with Mr. "Make America great again?"

The smart Euros know that they are stronger together...the only ones profiting from disunited european countries would be Trump and Xi!

The moment the US breaks up into 50 sovereign states we can discuss again what a smart move that will be for the Americans...not to mention that the US better starts taking care of their own "crumbling" right now! You don't look so good...
Vlad1234 16 | 625
15 May 2020 #447
"We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America."

Fortunately not from Ukraine or Canada. I'm so glad...

Eastern Germans are probably happy... Berlin wall stood 27 years and now 30 years have passed since it fell. All the dreams come true?..
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #448
It doesn't look good for North Stream 2

Germany denies Nord Stream 2 pipeline waiver of EU rules

reuters.com/article/us-germany-gas-nord-stream-2/germany-denies-nord-stream-2-pipeline-waiver-of-eu-rules-idUSKBN22R1B3

Germany's energy regulator on Friday declined to grant a waiver of European Union gas directives to the operators of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, dealing a fresh blow to the project to carry gas from Russia to Germany under the Baltic Sea....

Berlin wall stood 27 years and now 30 years have passed since it fell. All the dreams come true?..

For me personally definitely!
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #449
What feeding???

Aa a well-educated German you must be aware of the fact that since the end of WWII your country has been on the receiving end of American... lets call it subsidies. Even now your defense policy is based on US presence, so you no longer have to worry about Ivan's bad touch. So... you've been able to save a shitload of money...

US better starts taking care of their own "crumbling" right now

That's exactly why they won't "make Germany great again" ;)
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #450
Even now your defense policy is based on US presence

Well, that's gonna change now....

Oh and a unified defense force like the one the EU plans would be your best bet to save you the nerves and the costs to defend those ungrateful sob's.

A "crumbling" EU would be of no help....no country alone could stem the costs to supplant the US. You would need to send troops into every one of them...

So you better start cheering the EU and it's PESCO project...

That's exactly why they won't "make Germany great again" ;)

Germany is already quite great, thank you! The best in Europe and at least in the top 10 of the world....:)

Or even better :)

....Germany's leading advantage is its consistent strengths across multiple reputational categories: Exports, Culture, Immigration/Investment, and Governance. Global citizens have positive feelings about buying German products and the employability of the German people, putting Germany first in both categories for 2019. Citizens from China have the highest opinion of Germany's Exports, Governance, People, and Immigration/Investments...

ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/Germany-Retains-Top


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