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Poles say a big YES to our European Union


Spike31 3 | 1,625
15 May 2020 #451
The moment the US breaks up into 50 sovereign states we can discuss again what a smart move that will be for the Americans

OK, let's start with a fact that the EU is NOT United States of Europe. The EU is NOT, and will never be, a federation. The latest German constitutional court ruling has proved that beyond any doubt.

The EU is only a politico-economic union which has insatiable appetite to swallow sovereignty of its members which is strongly opposed, especially by Poland and Hungary. And if we drop a "politico" from it it could have a bright future and be accepted by all the members and a form of free european market with no strings attached.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #452
OK, let's start with a fact that the EU is NOT United States of Europe.

Well....the United States of America didn't start out united either....there had even been wars leading to and keeping this unification.

The EU is NOT, and will never be, a federation.

It can only be a federation...as in United States of Europe! :)

Nobody said the unification of Europe will be easy or anytime soon!
Spike31 3 | 1,625
15 May 2020 #453
there had even been wars leading to and keeping this unification.

Is Germany ready for another war to "unify" Europe? Keine grenzen
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #454
I doubt most are ready for it now....it's a generational progress...people will grow into it.
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #455
you better start cheering the EU and it's PESCO

Sorry, even if you combine that with TESCO, it won't work... no new Reich for you, my freund ;) And the notion that you can somehow reject both the US and China, having hostile Ivan and Turkey at your gates at the same time, is quite silly.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #456
it won't work

....well....then the US will have to keep on "feeding" us! So you better hope we make it work...so we can pull our own weight.

And it's not us rejecting the US, it's Trump rejecting the EU. But he will be gone sooner or later and the relationship can normalize again.

It would be better for both of us if we start rejecting China together. I'm not so sure about a hostile "Ivan" though....
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
15 May 2020 #457
people will grow into it.

Most people see the benefits, hence the particularly high approval rating that the EU gets here in Poland.
Spike31 3 | 1,625
15 May 2020 #458
I doubt most are ready for it now

In Germany, most likely. I have good memories from the army. We've practised dynamic shooting with assault rifles and pistols, trained BAS hand to hand army combat system (later on when I took civilian full-contact Kickboxing lessons it felt like a child play to me), even had a paramedic training. The army kept me fit, focused and dysciplined. It trained me how to stay cool headed and focused in frantic situations. And since we learned combat techniques it is only natural to use those skills for a good purpose in the future.

Now the army is fully professional and contract-based.
Back then it was mandatory service for young men. A school of life. We are still young men in our mid 30's. And now there are voluntary based terrytorial defense units created in 2016 which attact young men to a military service.

it's a generational progress

And in Poland people are growing into healthy nationalism. It is a generational progress. I think you believe too much in marxist determinism and Fukutama's "end of history" nonsense. "Liberal democracy" (as named by various groups of socialist since it doesn't have much to do with Liberalism in traditional sense) is not the only, nor natural, way for the societies to follow.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #459
And in Poland people are growing into healthy nationalism.

"Growing into"? Seriously? Nationalism is a kind of new thing for Poles???

"Liberal democracy" .... is not the only, nor natural, way for the societies to follow.

Na ja...it's like with socialism vs. capitalism.....capitalism won because it made more people happy than socialism. And liberal democracy is so successful because it also makes more people happy than a dictatorship or a kingdom or any other tried form of governance.

It might be that there will be another, even more successful form of society and economy....but I don't now of any yet.
antheads2
15 May 2020 #460
he said healthy nationalism kraut. stop being dense.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #461
So, the polish nationalism of old was "unhealthy"?
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
15 May 2020 #462
Very often yes...
Spike31 3 | 1,625
15 May 2020 #463
"Growing into"? Seriously? Nationalism is a kind of new thing for Poles???

No, it's a traditional and natural way for Poles. What I mean is that the young generation found a solid connection with their roots and rich history. Something which was discouraged or at least distorted first by the communist and later by post-commies painted as "liberals"
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
15 May 2020 #464
What I mean is that the young generation found a solid connection with their roots and rich history.

That's nice!
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
15 May 2020 #465
It's the young generations that most strongly support EU membership.
antheads2
15 May 2020 #466
and vote for PiS and Konfederacja..
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #467
hence the particularly high approval rating that the EU gets here in Poland

Yes, the EU, but not the United States of Europe...
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
15 May 2020 #468
but not the United States of Europe...

Which doesn't exist.

Yes, the EU

Which does, and which Poland joined after a democratic vote, and which receives particularly high approval ratings from Poles now.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
15 May 2020 #469
and vote for PiS and Konfederacja..

As usual, more lies from the Aussie Polonia. A majority of people aged 18-29 voted for opposition parties, not including Konfederacja.
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #470
Which doesn't exist.

Yet. And there are certain Bratwurst Boys, inside and outside of Poland, who are pushing for US of E ;) Sadly, that is a real danger.

which receives particularly high approval ratings from Poles

So does the currently ruling regime :) Somhow those things don't contradict each other as you tried to suggest in the beginning of this thread.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
15 May 2020 #472
So does the currently ruling regime :)

Not really. Of course, I suspect your orders only include references to polls carried out by Do Rzeczy and similar.
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #473
For whom?

Any sane person, possibly trying to avoid destruction of the EU.

I suspect

And I'm sure you are delusional as always. But no matter how hard you try the reality will catch up with you sooner or later.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
15 May 2020 #474
So does the currently ruling regime

Not nearly as much support as the EU; and of course on internal party politics, voters are notoriously fickle.

Good you admit it's a regime though...
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #475
A majority of people aged 18-29 voted for opposition parties, not including Konfederacja.

Can you provide any source? As far as I can remember Konfederacja won among young generations.. later was PiS, PO, Razem...

Not nearly as much support as the EU; and of course on internal party politics

You are having a pointless argument... with yourself. Can't you just admit that you wrote a load of BS and move on?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
15 May 2020 #476
Can you provide any source?

Yes, from the exit poll:

sonar.wyborcza.pl/sonar/7,156422,25304241,wybory-2019-koalicja-trzyma-sie-tylko-dzieki-mlodym.html

For the sake of making it easy to quote:

18-29 - KO/PSL/Lewica (52%) / PiS/Konfederacja (46.4%)
30-39 - KO/PSL/Lewica (53.3%) / PiS/Konfederacja (45.1%)
40-49 - KO/PSL/Lewica (53.9%) / PiS/Konfederacja (45%)
50-59 - KO/PSL/Lewica (45.4%) / PiS/Konfederacja (53.8%)
60+ - KO/PSL/Lewica (42.7%) / PiS/Konfederacja (56.7%)

It's a fascinating look at how Polish politics are played out - probably older voters rely more on TV (hence ~80% going to PiS/KO), while younger voters are much more internet savvy and able to decide for themselves, resulting in the vote being effectively split 4 ways.

There was some data somewhere showing that the youngest voters went heavily to Konfederacja and Lewica, but I don't remember where I've seen it now.
mafketis 23 | 8,382
15 May 2020 #477
while younger voters are much more internet savvy

The only time the young vote went to PiS was when they put JK and AM on ice and pretended they were becoming a sane Christian Democrat party with Szydło in charge (who seemed to be growing into the role of a party leader who resonated with a lot of the public)... that lasted until two seconds after the election and they lost the youth vote.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
15 May 2020 #478
probably older voters rely more on TV (hence ~80% going to PiS/KO

PiS certainly isn't a party with broad support among younger voters.

You are having a pointless argument... with yourself.

Do try harder; this thread is about how popular (i.e.very) the EU is in Poland.
KorkiTaczer - | 62
15 May 2020 #479
Do try harder;

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You either can't or won't acknowledge what you claimed earlier.
OP jon357 63 | 15,214
16 May 2020 #480
Talking to you is like talking

For you yes, especially since you have a. nothing sensible to say, and b. are trying to take the thread off topic.

And it still doesn't affect the verified fact that most people here support EU membership.


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