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Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


OP pawian 222 | 23,657
15 Dec 2022 #991
a tiny fraction of responsibility and statesmanship presented by PiS!

hahaha statesmanship of ritards? AmaSSing. You`d better tell us how long PiS gangsters delayed cancelling their failed deforms and how much it has already cost Poland. I don`t see any responsibility here. Quite the opposite: they are irresponsible losers playing dirty games at trhe cost of Poland which to them means nothing, they only care about leeching its assets for themselves and their families. .

then it will be bye-bye, leftards.

hahaha And who will decide about it??? AntiEuropean PiS is supported by about 30%, backed by about 5% nationalistische polaken. You, ritards, won`t mobilise enough stupid brainwashed voters to give you enough power to decide such serious issues. Most Poles are decent and reject ritardism.
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,412
16 Dec 2022 #992
And who will decide about it?

The democratically elected government. :)

Most Poles are decent and reject ritardism.

Actually, if you take a look at surveys about LGBT ideology, for example, you will notice that it is rather leftardism that is rejected by majority of Poles...

rp.pl/spoleczenstwo/art19007211-sondaz-w-polsce-wciaz-wiekszosc-przeciw-prawom-dla-par-tej-samej-plci

... also, all you have to do is take a look at the results of any election and see how many votes leftards (SLD, Razem) get to realise that. I know that it's painful when the reality hits you in the face but that's how it is. :)
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #993
LGBT ideology

No such thing. Unlike PiS' theocracy, there simply isn't an 'ideology' at all.
amiga500 4 | 1,503
16 Dec 2022 #994
"No such thing. Unlike PiS' theocracy, there simply isn't an 'ideology' at all."

Abortion is a sin and must be punished.
Refusing to use someones choice of 93 pronouns is a sin and must be punished.

A person can be cured/saved through the power of prayer ie thought
A man can give birth and a woman can have a penis through the power of thought.

Sounds all the same to me
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #995
a sin

Very hard to know what they mean by 'a sin'.

It seems like those who use it don't know what they mean either and prefer to engage in a phoney 'culture war' than accept that they're being played by every PR agent and lobbyist going. Meanwhile, they all get poorer.
amiga500 4 | 1,503
16 Dec 2022 #996
Very hard to know what they mean by 'a sin'.

As in a english school teacher recently being suspended and banned from school grounds, and then chucked in jail for returning to the school, for refusing to address one of their students as 'they'. Yes perhaps I should have used the word crime instead of sin.
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #997
A fuss over nothing.

You always get these religious oddballs getting themselves spread across as much media as their handlers can place stories in, saying that their 'beliefs; suddenly somehow trump the rules of their employment, despite everybody else in the workplace not getting stressed about it.

Why would that guy (who is, by the way, an activist and very much an online 'culture warrior') get all worked up about how they refer to someone else in the third person?

If he's such a committed Christian, you'd think he'd be more concerned about loving his neighbour and not judging people.
mafketis 36 | 10,785
16 Dec 2022 #998
there simply isn't an 'ideology' at all

Every political movement has ideology.

The original gay rights movement had an ideology, which was about equality under the law and separation of religious and civil law.

the current trans movement is about two ideas: believing makes it so* and the idea that people's 'authentic' selves can only be found through expensive and invasive medical interventions

exulansic (a lesbian) is very good on this topic (mainstream gay people, men and women) are some of the strongest critics of the AGP driven idea that women can have functioning male genitalia or that men can have periods...

*I have nothing against legal adults who've undergone counseling and decide on medical transition I have a _lot_ against those convincing unhappy teen girls to get masectomies and sterilization

And no, a man cannot become a woman, if you body produces (or has ever produced) sperm there is no way to turn into a person whose body produced eggs (and vice versa)
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #999
political movement

This isn't a 'political movement'. Where are the political parties?

equality under the law

Do you think that such a basic principle is an 'ideology'?

It's important not to get worked up about cleverly planned media storms (personally affecting a tiny number of people) which distract from issues affecting billions.
amiga500 4 | 1,503
16 Dec 2022 #1,000
This isn't a 'political movement'. Where are the political parties?

Now you're nitpicking and making yourself look silly, the fight for legalisation of homosexuality and later the legalisation of gay marriage in some countries did not require a 'political party.' As with any political movement, boots on the ground, organisational structures, influential allies, money, and most importantly pasage of time are the keys.

loving his neighbour and not judging people.

Demanding someone change their use of language and modify the definition of the english language without an invitation to do so, to satisfy that persons personal beliefs of their identity and entitlement and then explicitly ostracising and punishing them for not doing so is neither nice or charitable and definitely does not contribute to a better society.
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,412
16 Dec 2022 #1,001
It seems like those who use it don't know what they mean either

The best definition I've read (and a very succint one) comes from the Westminster Shorter Catechism: "Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God."

Demanding someone change their use of language

The problem with transgender youth, Ami, is that we have reliable data that show us clearly that if people insist on calling them by their "dead name", they are much more likely to commit suicide. Hard statistical data (I even read an academic paper on the topic some time ago), and this changes a lot, doesn't it?

The main concern of a teacher worthy of that name is the good of a student. That's it. No way around it. So, if I knew that refusing to call Magda Marek (or the other way around) could push the child to commiting suicide, and I still refused to use her/his name of choice, then I'd be a real son of a b*tch.

From my point of view as a Christian, the child might be in error, in sin, maybe even ensnared by Satan, but he/she might still realise their mistake, receive God's grace and repent, but there's one condition - the child has to be alive. Stubborn c*nts, like the "teacher" that jon357 mentioned, really get on my nerves - there's no love in them, they give Christians a bad name.
mafketis 36 | 10,785
16 Dec 2022 #1,002
Where are the political parties?

the civil rights movement, the womens movement and the gay movement in America did not have political parties...

you think that such a basic principle is an 'ideology'?

of course it is, the idea of equality under the law is a new and comparitively fragile idea and not something that arises easily or naturally in many human societies....

Can you define the words "woman" and "man" in a way that is not circular?
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,003
did not have political parties...

And yet they all won.

equality under the law is a new and comparitively fragile idea

Which is accepted as the norm in developed societies. If anything, the ideologists are the ones who vainly try to resist this.

define the words "woman" and "man" i

Does anyone need to?

When looking dispassionately at the so-called 'culture wars', especially as someone who used to teach PR at a university, it's staggeringly sad to see how people don't realise how they're being played.
amiga500 4 | 1,503
16 Dec 2022 #1,004
it's staggeringly sad to see how people don't realise how they're being played.

The feeling is mutual, all that money being made by the trans industry and shonky doctors by selling unproved for safety puberty blockers, mastectomies, genital tucks to ignorant parents to mutilate their children. And as if that doesn't have money, PR companies behind it that seek to influence the public debate, perhaps it's you that's being played, sucker. Luckily the U.K goverment wised up and shut down tavistock, USA next to go.
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,005
the trans industry and shonky doctors

A tiny number of people.

But if publicity about it gets people on either side get all hot and bothered, the PR exercise has worked.
mafketis 36 | 10,785
16 Dec 2022 #1,006
Does anyone need to?

I think any competent adult should be able to do so... and an inability or unwillingness to do so is a sign that something is wrong.

I can, can you? Or are you afraid to?

It's simple.... three words.....
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,007
It's simple...

Evidently it isn't, since the definitions change.

The Z generation don't (and whatever comes after them won't) accept the same definitions that our generation felt restricted by.

And nobody (unless they're very directly affected by ambiguities) needs to get all worked up as post-menopausal second generation feminists and other reactionaries afraid of the future feel the need to.
mafketis 36 | 10,785
16 Dec 2022 #1,008
Evidently it isn't, since the definitions change.

biology doesn't, though, no matter how much some might wish it would....
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,009
biology doesn't

Yet, as you know, gender is not sex.

Gender roles in western society have of course evolved hugely over the last century or so; and there's nothing to suggest that this trend is slowing, despite a century of resistance from the more reactionary in society.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,194
16 Dec 2022 #1,010
Gender roles in western society

Sure, you all went crazy like hell, and keep enforcing craziness by forece and prosecution of those sane people who don;t want to take part in it. Is that is western society? Spiralling down the hell hole.
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,011
you all went crazy like hel

People once said the same about new-fangled ideas like the wheel, christianity and piped water.
mafketis 36 | 10,785
16 Dec 2022 #1,012
Yet, as you know, gender is not sex.

You and I know that but the crazy AGP's are trying to dismantale every argument that biological sex even exists...

try to be nice and say "Okay woman can refer to the social class but female refers to the sex class" and the next they you know they're calling themselves "female"

say "biological woman" and they say "I'm not a machine... I'm a biological woman too!"

I drew the line months ago and they stomped right over it while calling themselves girls and threatening anyone who won't play along with their fantasies....

Do you honestly think Dylan Mulvaney or Jeffrey Marsh or Jessica Yaniv are women? Really?

What about Eddie Izzard... woman or straight man with a giant cross-dressing kink?
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,013
the crazy AGP's

The thing is, that there are so few of them, and we only ever hear about this when the conservative media start huffing and puffing. Nevertheless, the younger generation seem calmer about this than people older than them.

There was an article this week in a conservative newspaper in the UK about a bakery/sandwich/cafe chain (Greggs) issuing pronoun badges for staff, available on request if staff members wanted them. The comments from readers would be as you'd expect. And probably none of the commenters twigged that it was just something dreamt up by a kid in the marketing department to get the chain's name on the front page of every newspaper, seen by people who either probably didn't read the whole article or who don't care that much about trans/anti-trans issues, who then spent the day subliminally salivating about the shop's products.

Dylan Mulvaney or Jeffrey Marsh or Jessica Yaniv

I've not heard of any of the three you mentioned. April Ashley was a woman though and Steven Whittle is a man.

Eddie Izzard

As far as I know he describes himself as trans nowadays, has previously described himself as a cross-dresser, uses "he/him" and also makes it clear he's a man. A very good person. I've never found him funny as a comedian, however as a politician (he hopes to stand in Sheffield but may not get selected this time since they want a local candidate in that constituency) he is sound.
mafketis 36 | 10,785
16 Dec 2022 #1,014
I've not heard of any of the three you mentioned.

Dylan

twitter.com/Merryb2184/status/1602225220214996993

Jeffrey

twitter.com/NotMikeHarlow/status/1546924259582377985

Jessica

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,015
They seem like marginal online figures, participants in a phoney war, Much the same as their most vocal opponents.
mafketis 36 | 10,785
16 Dec 2022 #1,016
marginal online figure

you haven't been paying attention... they're the tip of the iceberg...
jon357 74 | 21,808
16 Dec 2022 #1,017
The future will after all be different from the present, just as the present differs from the past.

In Poland too, and the more extreme reactionary voices are hear testing to make political capital by exploiting fear of the unknown, the louder opposing voices will be. And we just end up with soaring blood pressure and a radicalised generation.
OP pawian 222 | 23,657
16 Dec 2022 #1,018
The democratically elected government. :)

Which is going to change the Constitution and add the first Amendment about Poland`s eternal membership in the EU??? Very well. Thank you for thinking about it already. :):):)

Actually, if you take a look at surveys about LGBT ideology,

I find it absolutely amaSSing that you are playing Dirk while he is absent. :):):) He also loved to point to old surveys to prove a point. Yours is also quite old, from Oct 2021. 14 months is like prehistory in our fast moving world. Try harder. :)):)

how many votes leftards (SLD, Razem) get to realise that.

But why are you limiting the choice of liberal parties to postcommunists only??? ):):) To the best of my knowledge, there are more of them.
GefreiterKania 36 | 1,412
17 Dec 2022 #1,019
14 months is like prehistory in our fast moving world.

Wrong again, misiu-pysiu. 14 months is an eyeblink, it's nothing when it comes to deeply ingrained societal attitudes.

Try harder. :)

No. It is you who claim that something has changed substantially in this regard in the last 14 months, so you should show us a newer survey. :)

To the best of my knowledge, there are more of them.

The ones I mentioned are leftards. There are, of course, some libtard parties too. These two sets of retards surely do intersect, but they are not identical.
jon357 74 | 21,808
17 Dec 2022 #1,020
Westminster Shorter Catechism:

That was a seventeenth century presbyterian document. From an age where people thought very differently to now and burned to death those who disagreed with them. At least PiS haven't started doing that yet..

change their use of language

Good manners.

to satisfy that persons personal beliefs

That however is a good point. Personal 'belief; is just that, personal, and not binding on others who don't share that belief. People who want a less secular society would do well to remember that.


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