Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons

Did you see the TVPiS alleged photos of people with guns in Sweden. It turned out to be stills from an action film.

We can look forward to a lot of anti-Europe propaganda soon, staged 'manifestacji' and daft placards included.

Most people instinctively cling to power hoping for safety and crumbs. Later, they find out they are the crumbs.


Same as anti-USSR. A very healthy attitude.

@Novichok

That is the state of The EU right now.

@Miloslaw
The EU will be forced to change and recognize each country can govern in its own was structured around the treaties. The primacy issue is one that I think will lose in their own courts.

These are not "debts". If someone declares that you are to pay him, due to some make believe reason, ignoring him does not mean you are in debt.

It is akin to some Jewish organisation pestering Poland to give them money because of German occupation.

A court decision?


Didn't take him long, did it...

Fining a country for doing things you don't like isn't a very good look tho.

Do you not think that courts have somewhat more specific criteria than things they "don't like"?

Why does EU have the power to order shutting down mines?

Part of joining the EU is agreeing that the EU has a say in disputes between members. The Czech republic has complained that the Polish mine is having adverse affects across the border.

What would you want to happen if it were the other way around, Czech mines depleting water and polluting Poland?

Thing is.....where to start and to stop "things you don't like"?

A member state decided it would be nice to end the independence of the justice and instead put it under political control (of the ruling party of course).

So....what if said party decides to hunt and jail the opposition next? Should someone say something if said political party decides to muzzle media it doesn't like?

Where do you think a union of democratic members should put it's foot down?

there is hardly any political control - there are a couple of judges who were dismissed from their posts and two or three who are suspended (=not given any cases to judge) - the remaining judges are free to judge according to their conscious (yes I said conscious because some of them pass verdicts that are not only openly against the will of the governing party but also against the rhyme and reason)

if you didn't know as per the letter of the law German politicians have more power over appointing judges than those in Poland


there is a similar case with Polish communities affected by a mine in Germany (ironically owned by Czech oligarchs)

What about saving justice from corrupted judges? Other corrupted judges from EU are bound to dislike it.


It is internal affair, if citizens dislike it, it is up to them to stop it. No foreign power have the right to interfere.
What about Poland sending armed intervention into Germany, because disliking Merkel's policy of inviting thirdworlders?

The separation between the judiciary and the political system is one of the most important cornerstones of every democracy worthy of that name!

It is a benchmark to differentiate between rotten autocratic systems like the Nazis, the Commies, Putin's Russia, Cuba or China....

....The Polish judicial disciplinary panel law is legislation approved by the Sejm (223 to 205) on 20 December 2019. The bill empowers the Disciplinary Chamber at the Supreme Court of Poland to punish judges who engage in "political activity", including questioning the political independence of the panel.[1] Punishment of judges may be a fine, reduction of salary, or termination from their position.[1] The law also changed the manner in which the head of the Supreme Court of Poland is appointed. The Law and Justice party had previously attempted to oust the current head, Małgorzata Gersdorf, and her term expires in 2020.[2] This gives the government, in effect, the ability to control and sack judges. The legislation violates EU judicial system legislation.[3]...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_judicial_disciplinary_panel_law

Spot the difference.....


No it's not! All member states subscribed to certain rules as they opted to become part of the EU....this democratic cornerstone was part of it. They broke it....now they have to fix it!


So....if said political party has gone so far (without a squeak by the EU because...you know....it's an internal affair) that makes it now impossible for the citizens to give their vote? What then, would be then a right time to say something?

the lessons of Germany don't always apply to Poland

- if German politicians appoint new judges is it not a violation of separation of powers??
- if so then yes Polish system was a perfect example of separation of powers because new judged were appointed by the top echelon of existing judges, in practice (with all the "irregularities", harmful loyalties which that entails including the expected political bias of the judiciary elites - you'd expect judge dynasties? no? we have some of those, too)


if judges act as politicians, do you think we should rely on their impartiality?

The Bundespräsident is just embellishment.....only need for the presentation at the very end....he has no powers whatsoever!

The judges are elected by a Committee for the Election of Judges. The ministers of the federal states (Länder) responsible for the administrative courts and an equal number of members appointed by the Bundestag sit on this committee.

The Federal Minister of Justice and Consumer Protection chairs the Committee for the Election of Judges. He and all members of the election committee are entitled to propose candidates. The consultative council for judicial appointments of the Federal Administrative Court issues a written opinion about each proposed new member. The Committee for the Election of Judges is not required to accept this vote. It elects the candidates it deems suitable by simple majority.

bverwg.de/en/das-gericht/organisation/richter-und-senate

It's a long process with alot of people from all parties involved, surely not one lone party and it's leader....


?


I have a problem with that too....in Germany we have right now some dispute about one of our judges having been abit to "friendly" with Merkel....

Such things have to be watched....but it's nonsense to forbid a judge a political opinion in the first place....also I have a feeling that a political opinion fitting and supportive of PiS would be more likely accepted as if he would show sympathy to the opposition!

Still...there are worlds between having an opinion and acting as a politician....

a quote of wikipedia on German judiciary: "The mostly decisive influence of the administration on the career of judges is exceptional in continental Europe, where mostly bodies of judges, elected by and within the judiciary take this kind of decision"

another quote from the same wikipedia entry: "As a rule, each decision on the initial employment, vesting with lifetime tenure or promotion of a judge is taken by the department of justice"

you may call it what you wish, I call it political influence on the judiciary

Yeah....well.....maybe Poland should in turn bring the german system to the EU court...could be interesting!

I mean that seriously...some things could be surely optimized here too.

you don't know what judge dynasties are - I can sure explain - a grandfather was a stalinist judge - then the mother or father were judges in the milder forms of Volksrepublik Polen (you know loyal people were necessary) - then in a new Poland her daughter became a judge (what a surprise) - to a greater surprise their offspring study to become judges (I have personally seen a person like this who was saying while being interviewed during street protests: 'I am very affraid of the PiS judicial reforms - I study to become judge like my parents were' (of course it's not word for word)

Do you mean a family of judges (which is not that rare) or do you mean related judges in said chamber (which sounds crazy)?

Like the Kaczyński family?

@Bratwurst Boy
could you rephrase that - I don't what you mean, to be honest

Well....ditto! :)

You spoke of dynasties of judges.....I'm not sure if you mean those inside a family or related judges appointed by the government?

in the democratic Poland judges were not appointed by the government - instead a committee dominated by the top echelon of the judges appointed them

So....with which "dynasties of judges" do you actually disagree with?

... they can leave.
Should Poland start building bunkers and forts on the border to the EU and brace for invasion?

twitter.com/akk/status/1438118184062787590

And not to forget the Russians on the other side.....like in the good 'ol times right? You only like it if Polands sits alone between all chairs again...the eternal victim, right?

But I don't think it will come to that...PiS already caved in:

reuters.com/world/europe/poland-will-change-disputed-disciplinary-chamber-ruling-party-head-says-2021-08-07/

Not to mention the polish people:

theconversation.com/the-polish-people-support-the-eu-its-their-government-that-continues-to-antagonise-brussels-170324

the communism is gone so I only don't want to see dynasties of judges in a democracy - anyway I'm all for judges being elected by the populace like in many states of the US


you believe in propaganda - while Polish populace is mostly in favour of membership in the EU, according to a new poll the vast majority is for a union of sovereing states as opposed to a European superstate

But especially the US judges are notorious for having strong political opinions....there are usually elected because of them!

For example is he pro guns or anti abortions...is he pro Dems or more Republican...they are everything but impartial....I'm not sure if I want that here....


Yeah....I don't see Poland as a part of a possible inner core in a "Europe of two speeds" either....