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Years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


OP pawian 221 | 24,014
30 Oct 2021 #721
Thank you Maf.

I am afraid you shouldn`t exploit other members to take voice on your behalf, it isn`t fair. :)Especially that maf, though he did his best to be informative, didn`t answer my request about elucidation of the problem coz he focused on Demos in the USA. But it isn`t his fault really, it is yours, coz it was your answer which you avoided. Check the title of the thread and elaborate on the problem in the context of Poland and the EU. I don`t care about the USA when I am in this thread.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,664
30 Oct 2021 #722
Financially, the EU has been of huge benefit to Poland.
But only because Poland was a weak economy.
Now that Poland is more stable and stronger, other factors are coming into play.
I don't see Poland leaving the EU any time soon, but cannot rule it out altogether.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
30 Oct 2021 #723
but cannot rule it out altogether.

Exactly. Those rabid rightists have unleashed such a mess that now anything may happen. Just like in pre-partition Poland in 18th century.
Miloslaw 19 | 4,664
30 Oct 2021 #724
I disagree.
I think that the EU is naive in thinking that all EU members will feel comfortable conforming with their morals and dictats.
Especially the ex communist countries who had to listen to Moscow.
They don't want Brussels as a replacement.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
30 Oct 2021 #725
They don't want Brussels as a replacement.

You know little of most Poles` preferences. :):)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,745
30 Oct 2021 #726
that all EU members will feel comfortable conforming with their morals and dictats.

Who do you think decides that? That sounds as if "the EU" is some foreign entity from Mars or elsewhere....pushed on poor, unsuspecting Europeans...

These decisions are made up by their members....keep that in mind!
Miloslaw 19 | 4,664
30 Oct 2021 #727
You know little of most Poles` preferences

Evidently more than you though... :-)
mafketis 36 | 10,707
30 Oct 2021 #728
I think that the EU is naive

You're out.... why do you still care? Some brexiteers are a bit like stalker ex-boyfriends....
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
30 Oct 2021 #729
You're out.... why do you still care?

Bullseye! :)
jon357 74 | 21,781
30 Oct 2021 #730
why do you still care?

Buyers' regret on the part of brexiters and a need to rationalise that.

Some brexiteers are a bit like stalker ex-boyfriends....

Except stalker ex-boyfriends have no chance of getting near the hole they were once in except by force. And they know that step-by-step, remainers/rejoiners are already past first base and about to get our hands in the ponczochy and start fingering their way back.
mafketis 36 | 10,707
30 Oct 2021 #731
I had mixed feelings about Brexit before but after the vote, the hemming and hawing from remainers and stonewalling from the EU was indefensible for a democracy.....

about to get our hands in the ponczochy

EWWWW!!!!! Unwanted images of Angela and Ursula and fingers...... make it go away!!!!!!!
Tacitus 2 | 1,354
30 Oct 2021 #732
Buyers' regret on the part of brexiters and a need to rationalise that.

Indeed. Everybody knows that Brexit was and is a terrible idea, but humans sadly have the tendency to double down rather than rethink their convictions. Pretty much everything the Brexiteers promised to counter the warnings of the Remainers has turned out to be wrong. "Easiest trade deal in history" "No border in Irland" "No need for much paperwork for import/export into the EU" "A quick trade deal with the USA". Of course according to their logic, this is not the result of falsw promises, but others trying to sabotage Brexit....
PolAmKrakow 2 | 904
31 Oct 2021 #733
@Tacitus
The Pound is stronger than the Euro, and England looks to be doing fine. Poland though is not England, and leaving the EU and the money would be damaging. That said, elimination of 23% VAT could reduce the impact and spur the growth of tourism. VAT is a crushing tax for consumers and business alike. Not convinced the EU experiment is good or bad, but it is definitely complicated and a political disaster.
Tacitus 2 | 1,354
31 Oct 2021 #734
Yeah, aside from the self-inflicted immenent and long-term political and economical, the UK is doing "fine".

the EU experiment is good or bad,

Poland is probably the country that benefits the most from the EU. Financially and economically it is a clear win without a downside, and in political terms the EU provides one last line of defence for Poland's democracy against the increasingly autorcratic PiS.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
31 Oct 2021 #735
the EU provides one last line of defence

Thanks for that. PiS` rule will end one day despite 30% support from their loyal voters. Their neobolshevik methods are leading to the similar situation as in 1989 when communist rule collapsed and Poland became free. So we mustn`t lose hope.
PolAmKrakow 2 | 904
31 Oct 2021 #736
@Tacitus
In the end, it is always people, the citizens that are the last line of defense. There is not a single autocratic government that has survived the test of time. Poland is a net receiver of EU money, seeing that go away will hurt. Inflation will rise more sharply and more quickly.

That said, PiS days are numbered. They have been for a while now. COVID will be their undoing, and if not for COVID I think people would have continued to fall for the free money for votes for at least another cycle. Now though the free money can't buy anything, and wont be effective. Coupled with the EU strife, and continued closure of business owned by families you have the perfect storm to end PiS rule.

The Polish Deal will be the final nail when tax revenues to cities are reported before the 2023 elections and services have to be cut. It is going to get worse before it gets better in Poland.
Cojestdocholery 2 | 1,191
31 Oct 2021 #737
The Polish Deal

It is influnced by the EU green directives.
PiS high taxes, a major inflation, some green gówno,
Miloslaw 19 | 4,664
31 Oct 2021 #738
You're out.... why do you still care?

Because we are still european, or is that too complex for you to comprehend?
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
31 Oct 2021 #739
Because we are still european

Good point - you are european, while we are European, it seems. :):):)
Miloslaw 19 | 4,664
31 Oct 2021 #740
@pawian

I was right.
It is too difficult for you.to understand that Brits.can be European and not in the EU.
We are not alone in this.
Not all European nations are in the EU.
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
31 Oct 2021 #741
that Brits.can be European

No, your Freudian slip was european, stop twisting it now.
mafketis 36 | 10,707
31 Oct 2021 #742
Because we are still european

Then you should want the EU to do well rather than wish it (and the countries in it) ill....
OP pawian 221 | 24,014
31 Oct 2021 #743
to do well rather than wish it ill....

Accurate observation.
Korvinus 2 | 453
2 Nov 2021 #744
breitbart.com/europe/2021/10/29/ghosted-poland-avoids-paying-eu-fine-by-leaving-email-from-court-unread/
Poland Avoids Paying EU Fines by Leaving Email from EU Court Unread
"This tactic of "ghosting" the EU court could hold off the fines for up to a week - unless it hires a courier in an effort to try and serve Poland its proverbial court papers - at which point they will automatically be considered to have been delivered."

Hilarious article.

I think the EU has served its purpose and can be disbanded now.
jon357 74 | 21,781
2 Nov 2021 #745
could hold off the fines for up to a week

That week has now ended, and in any case, the million per day fines are deducted from funding so the PiS regime have no choice about whether or not to pay.

I think

Not very well, you don't...
PolAmKrakow 2 | 904
2 Nov 2021 #746
@jon357
Actually jon, fines can not be deducted from recovery money and they are not being paid. Now France takes issue with EU primacy of law regarding fishing rights. Based on this I see a compromise quickly in order to keep France on the "right side" of things according to EU.
Korvinus 2 | 453
2 Nov 2021 #747
The ECJ in particular is playing a very stupid game. They can't enforce anything, not even the fines. There is no enforcing arm of the EU.

That's the reason for the rule of unanimity, which has been abrogated with the Lisboa treaty and the one before it, but in practice it does apply. If someone says no, there's not much the EU can do about that apart from politics, pressure and whining.

Looking back, the Lisboa treaty is just a big blunder. Perhaps big enough to ensure that the EU has no future.
jon357 74 | 21,781
2 Nov 2021 #748
Actually jon, fines can not be deducted from recovery money

They can of course be deducted from other funding and have already led to a withold..
"Legal experts believe this might involve some kind of offsetting of the funds owed to Poland."
dw.com/en/poland-vows-not-to-pay-any-eu-court-fines/a-59654600

Based on this I see a compromise quickly in order to keep France

I can see Macron having to back down over this, and a compromise made so he doesn't lose face to much pre-election.
mafketis 36 | 10,707
2 Nov 2021 #749
They can't enforce anything, not even the fines. There is no enforcing arm of the EU.

They make Poland look bad, with a dodgy government that doesn't pay its debts. Together with the lex TVN fiasco (trying to stab a key ally in the back) investors would be crazy to put money into Poland.

Suppposedly PiS is gearing up a PRL style government hate campaign against the EU, which will be hilarious and I doubt if it will be successful
Miloslaw 19 | 4,664
2 Nov 2021 #750
the EU has no future

That is my belief.
The Euro fanatics are completely out of touch with much of the rest of Europe and are commiting political suicide.
Goodbye EU, welcome back EEC.


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