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When did things went wrong for Poland and what went wrong?


Crow 160 | 9,034
1 May 2024 #1
I contemplated a lot for the critical moment in history of Poland.

I myself started investigation from the era of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Then stooped when became aware that reasons goes deeper in the past. In my opinion. So, I would continue to investigate.

What others on this forum think?
Ironside 51 | 12,462
1 May 2024 #2
Well, they haven't finished Moscow off when they have all the cards, and then let that little upstart Prussia grow.
Korvinus 3 | 508
1 May 2024 #3
All systems of government can degenerate, we know as much since Aristotle at least. The transformation of nobility democracy into the oligarchy that finally brought the collapse of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a process that lasted 3 centuries. However during the 16th Century Polish system of government allowed for division of power, political participation and rule of law on a level unmatched by any other system in our region.

The tragedy was the Commonwealth fell the moment it started to fix its government, overcome the corruption of the regime - the reformer faction that brought the Consistution of 3rd May 1791 proved to be too weak to defend it against the imperial neighbours. If the Constitution survived many aspects of public life - including the exploitation of peasants and underdevelopment of cities - would have to change. Especially with the revolution happening in France.

Alas, we lost our chance and had to wait another 123 years until another opportunity would arise.
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
3 May 2024 #4
and then let that little upstart Prussia grow.

How was this mistake possible?

they haven't finished Moscow off when they have all the card

What were the reasons for move on Moscow? What history says?
Bobko 25 | 1,973
3 May 2024 #5
What others on this forum think?

It's a long history, brate... and a sad one.

One should probably say, that the first wrong move was the turn away from Svetovid. Mieszko I committed a great mistake by allowing himself to be baptized by Vatican agents, and since then Poland has been paying the price.

The second grave mistake, was to orient their diplomatic policy towards Western countries instead of Serbia. This was a mistake for many reasons, but I will try to explain. As you know, Serbia is the source of all spiritual strength for the entire Slavic civilization. It is also the only country about which you can say with certainty, that it wishes only good things for Poland. As a caring mother, Serbia cares for all her children - even those that behave recklessly. However, Poland needed to make a step in Serbia's direction first, but instead it continues to fruitlessly pursue acceptance in the West.

Next, and with a heavy heart, I must talk about Polish mistakes vis-a-vis Russia. This is connected to wider Polish madness of engaging with the West, instead of its immediate spiritual family. Through Vaticanic and Germanic machinations, Poland has for a long time positioned itself as an antipode to Russia, and ignored Serbia (it is why I said Poland had to make the first step). Just like in life, where you will never find happiness without managing a good relationship with your family, so is Poland in constant turmoil because it refuses to align with Moscow and Belgrade.

Believe me brate, the greatest age in Polish history will begin when they finally embrace our common roots in Great Sarmatia.
Torq 7 | 708
3 May 2024 #6
they haven't finished Moscow off when they have all the cards

Well, we have a long story of not finishing off when we had all the cards. Why hadn't Jagiełło finish off the Teutonic Order after Grunwald, for example? We were always too soft. We lacked Russia's ruthlessness and, as they say, if you have a soft heart you need to have a hard anus. Life.

let that little upstart Prussia grow

Spot on. The singular biggest mistake of Poland. Prussia had been the greatest force behind partitions. Austro-Hungary and Russia were empires anyway, but Prussia - the damn Prussia - their only way to imperial glory was over our dead body. :-/ Of course, the WW1 and WW2 were results of not nipping the Prussian militarism in the bud. Again, we weren't ruthless enough; hearts and anuses and all that...

It's a long history, brate...

And the Best Crow Impersonation award goes to...
Ironside 51 | 12,462
3 May 2024 #7
Why hadn't Jagiełło finish off the Teutonic Order after Grunwald,

Because he was the ruler of the Grand Duthcy in the first place and a politician and was playing games, it wasn't in his interests to destroy the Oder completely.
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
3 May 2024 #8
One should probably say, that the first wrong move was the turn away from Svetovid.

Let us take this as the end of one era. We all entered era of Christianity.

Negative effect was that Church had its bureaucracy. That later divided Church and used it for the interests of certain circles, outside of Slavic world, in all options, Catholic, Orthodox or later Protestant. Good thing is that we Slavs adopted national Churches within Orthodoxy, but that was prevented in Catholicism. As another good thing, we Serbs on Balkan managed to preserve devotion to Svetovid and SLAVA custom in Christianized forms. In my belief, this will prove vital for Slavic civilization in new era that yet to come, in new architecture of the world after this current turmoil, in the sense that we have something our own preserved in direct continuity with our ancient culture.

Mieszko I committed a great mistake by allowing himself to be baptized by Vatican agents

Mieszko didn`t made mistake. Truthfully enough, it was impossible to him to avoid Catholicism considering all cultural impact Balkan Serbs and later Serbian Empire had on Poland and Commonwealth. Plus there was the influence from the west of Europe and Rome itself. At the moment when majority of Poles adopted Catholicism, most of the Balkan Serbs was Catholic. Just think of Jadwiga, the child of Polish Piasts and Serbian Nemanjic magnates, two richest and most powerful houses at that exact moment of history in Europe.

Close relations continued on Balkan-Baltic (Serbia-Poland) line even when Serbian Nemanjic, back then already Imperial house resisted to dictate of the papacy and turned to Orthodoxy. All point to the fact that Polish and Serbian magnates had their own interests to mutually prosper, no matter divisions within Christianity generated by the Vatican and Constantinople. Not surprisingly if we know that ancient Baltic-Balkan amber trade route wealth flow involved our ancestors and noble houses and warlords prior to Piasts and Nemanjcs.

The second grave mistake, was to orient their diplomatic policy towards Western countries instead of Serbia.

Again, not a mistake considering Ottoman invasion onto Balkan Serbian lands. What else Poland could do? If Poland tried to follow Serbs into Orthodoxy and form its national Church, which would suit Poland`s independence, Poland would be destroyed by the who knows how much crusades called by the Rome. Same thing would destroy Balkan Serbs even if Ottomans didn`t invade.

Anyway, Poles did their best to support resistance of Balkan Serbs against Ottomans but all was futile, while these attempts weakened Poland even more. Let us just rem,ind ourselves that King Wladislaw Warnenchyk was killed on Balkan, that Zawisa Czarny did fighting Turks in Serbia.

Finally, when Balkan Serbs lost their state under the Ottoman yoke and pressure from the Vatican, what Poland could do then follow the dictate from the west of Europe and Rome.
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
12 May 2024 #9
What went wrong?

For sure, this is one of the things. Never did Poland erected monument to the Gavrilo Princip. Never. And this Serbian student from Bosnia and Herzegovina is the reason Poland got its independence and statehood restoration.

Mizkiewich told to Czartorisky, who relied on France and Polish emigres to France, that all is futile and that he needs to work with Serbs and Russians, that Serbs suffer in AH, that would they rebel against AH, that Serbia would be involved, that Russia would react and that situation may lead to the independence of Poland. Exactly that happened.

But, no monument to the Gavrilo in Poland. No monument to Serbians and to Serbia.

Without monument, there is no trace left to Polish children and children can`t learn. Without knowledge, there is no truth, no power, no orientation.
Alien 21 | 5,197
13 May 2024 #10
Never did Poland erected monument to the Gavrilo Princip. Never.

No monuments are erected to common murderers.
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
13 May 2024 #11
Pardon? How come killing of occupational leader represent murdering?

Plus, Poland profited on it, as Mizkiewich and Czartorisky knew that would be.

Some in Poland forgot how to threat invaders. Or, didn`t consider AH as invading force. Maybe that. But why such a creatures have power to decide on monument about Gavrilo in Poland?
Alien 21 | 5,197
13 May 2024 #12
Poland profited on it, as

Poland also profited from Stalin, who moved Poland more towards European civilization to the west. Should we erect a monument to him?
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
13 May 2024 #13
Its philosophical question, you see. Or even pragmatic one. If not for the Stalin, Poland would definitely today have a monument to Hitler.

How about that?
Miloslaw 21 | 5,128
13 May 2024 #14
Never did Poland erected monument to the Gavrilo Princip.

this Serbian student from Bosnia and Herzegovina is the reason Poland got its independence and statehood restoration.

HaHaHaHa!!!.... Crow you have a very weird sense of logic.....what you say, in some obscure way may well be true, but it is not the REASON Poland regained it's independence.
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
14 May 2024 #15
Name it as you wish. Gavrilo gave his life to the cause. He most directly created situation that led to independence of Poland, and himself was in every move motivated with ideas of liberation not only of Serbians in AH but all the Slavs.

As far as we know Mizkiewich and Czartorisky possible themselves helped in arming him. They definitely got monuments in Poland. So why not Gavrilo?
jon357 74 | 22,396
14 May 2024 #16
Gavrilo

When your national 'hero' was a consumptive assassin then you really do have problems.
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
14 May 2024 #17
Gavrilo was a student. He was member of political movement Young Bosnia and he was also Serbian patriot. At a time existed many such movements in AH. Young Italy, for example. That also worked for liberation from AH.

See, AH committed genocide on local Serbians when illegally annexed Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as Dubrovnik and Dalmatia. Plus, Serbians there never wanted to be part of AH but of Serbia or in Yugoslavia with Serbia.

So Gavrilo was a freedom fighter, not assassin. See, Gavrilo didn`t go to Austria but vice versa, Ferdinand, with armed force, came to Bosnia. Not to say that Ferdinand himself was a monster.
jon357 74 | 22,396
14 May 2024 #18
Gavrilo was a student.

A murderer.
OP Crow 160 | 9,034
14 May 2024 #19
You for sure have right to your opinion. But I, for the sake of my sanity, won`t even try to comprehend your malevolent mental ways.
Novichok 4 | 8,185
14 May 2024 #20
won`t even try to comprehend your malevolent mental ways.

Good decision, Crow. He will always have the last word, no matter how idiotic...
Perverts are unable to see reality as it is. They create their own and think that banging a guy is how babies are made.


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