Poland to return to Catholic tradition?

Depends who you ask.

I consider all humans to be members of the Church of Delph. Doesn't mean they are.

Running interference for your pal delph.
I ask Harry a yes or no question about the Catholic Church, not you, so Pleeeeze stifle yourself with your nonsense to confuse the question.

Have you noticed, Johnny, how certain posters, are obsessively concerend with somebody else's church? They intrude, delve, split hairs as if they had nothign better to do. Maybe they're secret wannabes who envy Catholics their faith and commitment. I reckon its better to belong to so noble a body than to flit aimelssly like a speck of flotsam in the sea of life. Rather than all the backstabbing and badmouthing why don't they either join or just b*gger off and STFU?!

I will do it when Catolics nad others will stop bugger info other ppl lives nad imposing their belief onto society, deal?
Especially in Poland the amount of times even the law is broken just because it concerns religion (e.g. signing kids out of religion classes instead of signing them in, the hours of religion classes)

In other words make an official Act iof Apostasy. This one off-the-wall publicity-sereking politician Janusz Palikot actually tried to be a poor man's Martin Luther when he tacked his Act fo Apostasy to the door of a church in Łódź. Natrually he made sure the hacks and TV crews were duly alerted ahead of time.

The biggest opponents of Church: LBGT and angstheists (basically ANGRY atheists, not all atheists).
Then comes Freemasonry and Liberals (same thing really),
and finally anti-Catholic Protestants (not all of them but certain sects who think the Popes are evil) or anti-Catholic (insert religion here).

That's what I thought too Harry but apparently if you're excommunicated (which is extremely rare) you can still attend mass (though you can't take Communion) and you are encouraged to maintain a relationship with the Church. In the old days I would say that the threat of excommunication was used very cleverly to exploit the fear that Catholics had of dying without being in 'a state of Grace'. If you made a death bed repentance even without a priest present, you'd be ok but you might not get that chance. That's why Catholics even during my own childhood trotted off to Confession on a Saturday and then tried to behave themselves in case they died before their next Confession!

I'll tell you something interesting. It's not actually shown in the film 'Michael Collins' but when he was shot, one of his comrades Commandant Sean O'Connell knelt by him and asked him 'Mick do you repent your sins' and then recited the Act of Contrition on Collins' behalf. This is routinely done when a Catholic can't speak for themselves. He was holding Collins' hand as he did so and he claimed that he felt Collins squeeze his hand in response but he may simply have imagined it as it seems that Collins died almost instantly from a pretty massive head wound.


In light of this discussion I did a quick bit of research last night and you're not allowed to do that anymore. It was abolished in October 2010. Here's the official statement given to journalists by the Catholic Church in Ireland, that was read out on RTE, the national TV channel:

The Holy See confirmed at the end of August that it was introducing changes to Canon Law and as a result it will no longer be possible to formally defect from the Catholic Church. This will not alter the fact that many people can defect from the Church, and continue to do so, albeit not through a formal process. This is a change that will affect the Church throughout the world. The Archdiocese of Dublin plans to maintain a register to note the expressed desire of those who wish to defect. Details will be communicated to those involved in the process when they are finalised. Last year 229 people formally defected from the Church through the Archdiocese of Dublin. 312 have done so, so far this year.

Despite the instructions from the Vatican, Ireland continued to record defections for the next few years but I think they stopped in 2014. Anyway they no longer accept them, that's for sure.

That is weird. I have no particular interest on the internal affairs of the catholic church as long as I'm left alone to be as non-catholic as I desire. this is pretty much my attitude towards all religions - practice them in private and stop trying to force others into observing your daddy issues.

Quite. It's when religious groups try to make others follow the precepts of their religion, tell them that they can or can't conduct business on certain days, try to impose their beliefs about family planning on society as a whole that problems emerge - hence the haemorrhage of churchgoers in Poland and elsewhere.

At gunpoint surely?! Every manfuacturer is tryingn to MAKE people buy their product, every party is trying to MAKE people vote for them, every group be it animal-righsters or the anti-smoking lobby is trying to MAKE people support their cause. That is free speech and the free interplay of ideas. Surely a religous group should have at least the same right as some garden-variety a deodorant or dog-food maker to present their view.

That persuasion is not coercion. When something is increasing, to you that is "decline". An election defeat in some remote hayseed hicktown is a major turning point. You do have a problem with definitons, dont' you.

Yes, but in this country you aren't. And if one dares to question that, the reply from those who want to impose their religious beliefs on you is always "Poland is a Catholic country." But the reality is that Poland is no more a Catholic country than it was a communist country, as is shown by the fact that very similar percentages of Poles were in the Party and bother to do the minimum required of the faithful by the RCC.

"Present their view" or

I'd say CONVINCE for each of those examples. I have nothing wrong with the church trying to CONVINCE people to follow their doctrines (or using whatever coercive power they have with their followers), I have a major problem of them wanting to use the coercive power of the state to make non-catholics follow specifically catholic doctrine (regarding things like abortion, in vitro etc). I also think mandatory religious lessons in public schools is immoral but it's also been a major tactical mistake as its actually driven many, many young people straight from the church...

Again, it's not just catholicism I feel the same way about all religions and varieties thereof. Do what you want in private (within the boundaries of individual rights) but don't try to boss other people around.

Duh? Those people who are Catholics and who are voting in elections expect from their representatives. Acting according to the will of their constituency is called democracy - a concept you seem to have a problem to grasp.


Really? I dare you to name a one thing of a religious matter that you are forced to preform!

It's not that you're forced to perform anything, it's that your civil liberties are interfered with because there are certain things which are against the teachings of the Catholic Church or can be perceived as being in conflict with Catholic ideals. For example look at situation regarding IVF treatment in Poland.

Well, Atch do you personally favour the butchery of unborn infants? There have been great advances in that field with things like partial-birth abortion. During childbirth they let the head come out, grab its neck with tongs and then chop up the newborn to pieces. Nice, eh?


Sorry. I beat my breast for getting it wrong. The feet come out first. Never witnessed one of these and never will. Here's the correct description:

Partial-Birth Abortion is a procedure in which the abortionist pulls a living baby feet-first out of the womb and into the birth canal (vagina), except for the head, which the abortionist purposely keeps lodged just inside the cervix (the opening to the womb). The abortionist punctures the base of the baby's skull with a surgical instrument, such as a long surgical scissors or a pointed hollow metal tube called a trochar. He then inserts a catheter (tube) into the wound, and removes the baby's brain with a powerful suction machine. This causes the skull to collapse, after which the abortionist completes the delivery of the now-dead baby.

Long love feminists!

Of course you won't because as you seem to know so much about it, you will know that it is banned in the US, so apart from the shock value, what was your point in bringing it up? So much for your " great advances " in the field of abortion.

So, we have a thread about Catholicism in Poland and people are discussing that and pointing out that only a small minority of Poles are practising Catholics and discussing what makes one a Catholic and so on. All good friendly discussion. But then one poster decides to drive the thread off-topic by posting about abortion, a deliberate and cynical attempt to stop people talking about how Poland isn't the same as the fantasy certain people love to project. How very surprising.

Atch, could you share thoughts about whether trying to end discussions by driving then off topic is Catholic behaviour? I'm pretty sure that it isn't Polish behaviour.

@Harry: no matter what, close to 98% of Poles claim to be catholics and when they say so, they are not under torture ;). Yes, more and more especially among the urban educated younger upper classes Poles become secular but nevertheless they consider themselves catholic. Among said circles and also among the old communists, we can also find some atheists but let's face it, they are not even 1% of the Polish population (I know fewer than 10 Poles claiming to be atheist). Indeed, the bulk of the Polish society are extremely religious and do attend Church (every time I pass in front of a Church, I am amazed at the huge crowds). Those claiming to be secular do attend Church on big occasions.

Even if Poland is not a "catholic state", it is a country of catholics. Around 98% of a population confirm it ;). And it is because Poland is a country of catholics that the State subsidizes Church, that there is catholic religious instruction in public schools, that there are crosses in public buildings, that abortion, same sex marriage and other liberal measures are and will always be forbidden

Harry, this is the way it is and you cannot change facts...

@Pol3: where the heck have you seen that? Same source as for the dogs protecting the used to be Rainbow in Warsaw? ;). You are intelligent enough not to believe any BS you can find in the media, including the net and stupid YouTube fictions. I know that a lot of PF's members take ANY sh@@@t found in the media as THE TRUTH but you are too intelligent to buy lousy crap. Even if we follow Goebbels, a lie repeated even millions of times does never become a reality.

Isn't that the figure that the Church claims, rather than the actual number?

@Delph: so what %? Needless to say, it is among the very highest in all Europe.

All Warsaw is waiting with bated breath for the inauguration of Delph's pervert rainbow spanning Plac WiIsona. For some strange reason he has been unusually silent on the subject although he was huffing, puffing and spewing apace not so long ago. Now that he has exited his cupboard and proclaimed his depravity to all and sundry, one would think he'd be actively pushing that project. At least that would eb better than invading sports clubs to infect innocent lads with degenerate lifestyles.

I seem to remember 39% is the real number of people who bother to turn up every week. From memory, Malta has a higher rate, and Poland is a bit more than in Slovakia. Interestingly, the number in the UK is about 22% of Catholics, which is higher than I'd expect.

It's worth pointing out that the attendance is often inflated by things such as people going to mass because their kid has to as part of the first communion preparation - I know quite a few people that only went so that their kid could get 'a party and presents', which is sick. Polonius probably regards such people as being completely false, and I'd agree with him.

"lol"! I was there twice last week and laughed as I was thinking about PF ;)

Yet another example of toxic commerpop seeping into every field of human endeavour. The tabloidisation of life and complete commercialisation of homo sapiens is sick!

One nice thing that a lot of more sensible priests have done is to demand that simple, inexpensive clothes are used for the first communion. Our religion teacher in school (one of my favourite colleagues) is forever banging it into their heads that it's not about presents or parties, but parents are irresponsible fools.

No, such parents are the hapless victims of commerpop! Now do you see why that phenomenon is such a toxic, dehumanuising phenomenon?
Rap crap and drunken druggie Osbourne biting off a live chicken's head on the stage are just examples of the total, all-embracing commerpop system.

@Delph: close to 98% of Poles claim to be catholic because they believe they are and they are! Almost all Poles are christened in the Catholic religion. You and Harry must have a different definition of what a X or what a Y is. In France, for instance, only 15% of people REGULARLY practice any religion (no official figures, only as reported by different religions) and I think around 50% (here again no official figures) claim to be ... catholic, for the huge majority of whom being a catholic means being christened, then married in Church (AFTER compulsory civil ceremony) and buried further to religious ceremony and they never set a foot to any church. Nobody dares telling them they are NOT catholics because they claim to be and the Church accepts them. ;). Same applies to a lot of Poles who now go to Church only on big accasions.

@Pol3: sure, there are a lot of nut cases among the "commerpop" but same applies elsewhere ;). The Poznanski guy has a clean cut look, may be a churchgoer but nevertheless has murdered and beheaded a poor girl. What about Hilter, Stalin, Franco, Mussolini, Pol Pot and co.? They all had short hair styles, clean cut looks and .....

But all the blood-dripping violence and wanton promiscuity shown repeatedly by the entertainment and news media only serves to activate sick minds. Many would not have had the brains to think up weird, cruel acts of violence on their own. Or maybe they would only victimise a stray dog or cat. And althouhg you or I seeing such garbage may not run out and hack up the first person we see with an axe, are there really such great redeeming values to glamourisng and effectively promoitng the underbelly of human depravity 24/7? People want to watch it, some will say. If we scheduled a public execution in the town square, gawkers aplenty would turn out to watch. Should that institution therefore be reinstated?

@Pol3: sure you and I would not .... For instance, I watch CBS Reality (channel 419 at my place with UPC) a lot with tons of murders all more atrocious than each other but like you say "you and I would not .." but I know that sick minds could easily get influenced...