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Referendum to decide about exotic immigrants in Poland


gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #301
but have you been living under a rock?

yes, I have - I'm also pretty sure some people who are living under an American rock might be interested
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #302
still acknowledge the democratic value of a referendum, any referendum!

Referendum being used as a political tool to adventage the ruling party is undemocratic in the essence and that is why the voters showed it by not voting.

It was also bending the rules of voting secrecy as if you didn't want to vote in it you had to say that to the commission and around other voters.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,795
16 Oct 2023 #303
....if you didn't want to vote in it you had to say that to the commission and around other voters.

Strange.....
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #304
the voters showed it by not voting.

the voters rejected the referendum because opposition parties and opposition media told them to and because of the herd instinct, if you want to know my opinion
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #305
It was also bending the rules of voting secrecy

the illegal incedents of asking people if they want the referendum sheet by numerous members of electoral committees in bigger cities violated the secrecy in the same manner - how about that?
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #306
Strange

Exactly.

if you want to know my opinion

And in my opinion it's enough to read the questions to figure out why people would oppose it.
Forget even the party lines, at least 2 questions are so vague that no sensible person can answer yes or no.

how about that?

It's the same thing so why ask? It's exactly why people call this referendum pathetic.
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #307
to read the questions to figure out why people would oppose it.

ok, let's debate - what is so outrageous about asking people if they support raising of the retirement age?
Ziemowit 14 | 4,278
16 Oct 2023 #308
Strange.....

All the four questions in this ridiculous referendum were ones of the Soviet-style type:

- Please tell us who your idol is, and why is it comrade Lenin?

which is why so many voters listened to the oppostion parties urging them not to take part.
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #309
what is so outrageous about asking people if they support raising of the retirement age?

Because you should give specific. Raise how? By a year? To equal man and women? To 80?
mafketis 36 | 10,788
16 Oct 2023 #310
ridiculous referendum were ones of the Soviet-style type:

That was the "debate" on public TV with long meandering 'questions' that talked about how great PiS was....

Asking about retirement age is one thing but context is needed. How did PiS propose to fund retirees without enough young people working and making enough money to support them?
Atch 23 | 4,048
16 Oct 2023 #311
Because you should give specific.

Exactly. The wording of referendum questions has to be precise. People have to understand what it is they are actually voting for or against. It can't be vague and general.
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #312
Because you should give specific.

why be specific? please explain

How did PiS propose to fund retirees

if my memory serves me correctly in the referendum concerning joining the EU the question was simple "Are you for Poland joining the EU" - noone has asked about hidden cost of the joining that affected many small business and some sectors of the agriculture
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #313
Because someone may be for equalising the retirement age but not generally rising it?
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #314
so you are among those few women who are for the equalising of the retirement age? I pray that your wish should be granted to you
Paulina 16 | 4,203
16 Oct 2023 #315
if my memory serves me correctly in the referendum concerning joining the EU the question was simple "Are you for Poland joining the EU"

That's because the referendum was about a simple matter - about deciding to join or not to join the EU. Making law is more complicated than that and that's why questions concerning that have to be more specific.

so you are among those few women who are for the equalising of the retirement age?

You're deflecting :) This is not about what one Lenka is in favour of - she explained it to you why referendum questions should be more specific in such case.
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #316
she explained it to you why referendum questions should be more specific

to me the question was bright and clear - btw equalising retirement ages in Poland means either raising or lowering of retirement age for a part of the population - there is no third way about it
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #317
to me the question was bright and clear

So if you were for equalisingthe retirementage but not rising it above 65 what would you have answered?
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #318
I hope you realize the retirement age for men IS 65

anyway if the referendum on that particular question was passed (I mean people voted NO) there should be no raising of retirement age in any form - isn't it clear for you
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #319
OK, read slowly. If you were:
- pro equalising retirement age by raising women retirementage to 65

But

-against raising it for anyone above 65

Which answer would you choose?
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #320
you don't understand me, but you are justified to be honest - I don't care about women's retirement age tbh (so I don't mind either keeping it the way it is now or raising it) - my 'prayer' was just a figure of speech

-against raising it for anyone above 65

I never said that - I said the question is bright and clear - and if the referendum was valid and people voted NO the government would be legally bound not to ever raise the retirement age in any form (or until another referendum)
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #321
and if the referendum was valid and people voted NO the government would be legally bound not to ever raise the retirement age in any form

But in my scenario you want the women age to be raised. If you answer NO it won't show your true thoughts.
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #322
sorry I don't understand what you mean :) - in my scenario you are 88 years old and have no teeth - how do you like that :P
Ziemowit 14 | 4,278
16 Oct 2023 #323
If the Opposition formed a new gov't under Tusk, would Tusk sell half of Poland to Germany and the other half to Russia, as PiS said?
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #324
it's more of a philosophical question - the true question will emerge when there is a plan to centralize the EU will go into voting in the Europarliament on 25th of November which abolishes the right of member states to veto new legal proposals and how the new government (most probably under Tusk) will to react
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #325
sorry I don't understand what you mean

How a citizen X is supposed to vote if he wants the retirement age for women to be raised to 65 but he doesn't want the retirement age raised above 65?

Should such citizen answer yes or no to the referendum question?
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #326
How a citizen X is supposed to vote if he wants the retirement age for wome

you know: I would like to vote for the Republican party - how can I vote for Republicans in Poland? - sometimes you can't have all you wish for

edit: however there is kind of a solution to your problem - democratic at that - the citizen X can campaign for another referendum on the subject with exactly the questions that they deem necessary to achieve their dreemed outcome - who knows maybe there are enough people in the country who would support their (citizen's X) quest
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #327
But he can't legimately answer yes or no to that question. Why would he take part in it in the first place?
gumishu 13 | 6,134
16 Oct 2023 #328
But he can't legimately

why not - they can - althought the alternatives would be suboptimal to them - they can always choose to abstain too (they still have choice) - it's like a choice in the supermarket - you would like to buy strawberry buttermilk but you can only find strawberry yoghurt and plain buttermilk (you can always choose not to buy either) - you can't always have it all

or another analogy - I would like the leftist parties in Poland (Lewica and PiS) to join forces (let's say after PiS abandons more extreme religiously guided policies and Lewica abandons their radical pro-European stance) - so what?: they are not ready or willing to (despite people like Rafał Woś calling for it)
Lenka 5 | 3,396
16 Oct 2023 #329
Because if you ask a yes or no question it should be clear what you say yes or no to.Referendum questionsshould be clear and precise.
Ziemowit 14 | 4,278
16 Oct 2023 #330
The aim of this referendum was not obtaining genuine answers to genuine questions, but to increase the support for the PiS party.

Thus it is irrelevant to discuss the wording of the questions.


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