Referendum to decide about exotic immigrants in Poland

yes, I have - I'm also pretty sure some people who are living under an American rock might be interested

Referendum being used as a political tool to adventage the ruling party is undemocratic in the essence and that is why the voters showed it by not voting.

It was also bending the rules of voting secrecy as if you didn't want to vote in it you had to say that to the commission and around other voters.

Strange.....

the voters rejected the referendum because opposition parties and opposition media told them to and because of the herd instinct, if you want to know my opinion

the illegal incedents of asking people if they want the referendum sheet by numerous members of electoral committees in bigger cities violated the secrecy in the same manner - how about that?

Exactly.


And in my opinion it's enough to read the questions to figure out why people would oppose it.
Forget even the party lines, at least 2 questions are so vague that no sensible person can answer yes or no.


It's the same thing so why ask? It's exactly why people call this referendum pathetic.

ok, let's debate - what is so outrageous about asking people if they support raising of the retirement age?

All the four questions in this ridiculous referendum were ones of the Soviet-style type:

- Please tell us who your idol is, and why is it comrade Lenin?

which is why so many voters listened to the oppostion parties urging them not to take part.

Because you should give specific. Raise how? By a year? To equal man and women? To 80?

That was the "debate" on public TV with long meandering 'questions' that talked about how great PiS was....

Asking about retirement age is one thing but context is needed. How did PiS propose to fund retirees without enough young people working and making enough money to support them?

Exactly. The wording of referendum questions has to be precise. People have to understand what it is they are actually voting for or against. It can't be vague and general.

why be specific? please explain


if my memory serves me correctly in the referendum concerning joining the EU the question was simple "Are you for Poland joining the EU" - noone has asked about hidden cost of the joining that affected many small business and some sectors of the agriculture

Because someone may be for equalising the retirement age but not generally rising it?

so you are among those few women who are for the equalising of the retirement age? I pray that your wish should be granted to you

That's because the referendum was about a simple matter - about deciding to join or not to join the EU. Making law is more complicated than that and that's why questions concerning that have to be more specific.


You're deflecting :) This is not about what one Lenka is in favour of - she explained it to you why referendum questions should be more specific in such case.

to me the question was bright and clear - btw equalising retirement ages in Poland means either raising or lowering of retirement age for a part of the population - there is no third way about it

So if you were for equalisingthe retirementage but not rising it above 65 what would you have answered?

I hope you realize the retirement age for men IS 65

anyway if the referendum on that particular question was passed (I mean people voted NO) there should be no raising of retirement age in any form - isn't it clear for you

OK, read slowly. If you were:
- pro equalising retirement age by raising women retirementage to 65

But

-against raising it for anyone above 65

Which answer would you choose?

you don't understand me, but you are justified to be honest - I don't care about women's retirement age tbh (so I don't mind either keeping it the way it is now or raising it) - my 'prayer' was just a figure of speech


I never said that - I said the question is bright and clear - and if the referendum was valid and people voted NO the government would be legally bound not to ever raise the retirement age in any form (or until another referendum)

But in my scenario you want the women age to be raised. If you answer NO it won't show your true thoughts.

sorry I don't understand what you mean :) - in my scenario you are 88 years old and have no teeth - how do you like that :P

If the Opposition formed a new gov't under Tusk, would Tusk sell half of Poland to Germany and the other half to Russia, as PiS said?

it's more of a philosophical question - the true question will emerge when there is a plan to centralize the EU will go into voting in the Europarliament on 25th of November which abolishes the right of member states to veto new legal proposals and how the new government (most probably under Tusk) will to react

How a citizen X is supposed to vote if he wants the retirement age for women to be raised to 65 but he doesn't want the retirement age raised above 65?

Should such citizen answer yes or no to the referendum question?

you know: I would like to vote for the Republican party - how can I vote for Republicans in Poland? - sometimes you can't have all you wish for

edit: however there is kind of a solution to your problem - democratic at that - the citizen X can campaign for another referendum on the subject with exactly the questions that they deem necessary to achieve their dreemed outcome - who knows maybe there are enough people in the country who would support their (citizen's X) quest

But he can't legimately answer yes or no to that question. Why would he take part in it in the first place?

why not - they can - althought the alternatives would be suboptimal to them - they can always choose to abstain too (they still have choice) - it's like a choice in the supermarket - you would like to buy strawberry buttermilk but you can only find strawberry yoghurt and plain buttermilk (you can always choose not to buy either) - you can't always have it all

or another analogy - I would like the leftist parties in Poland (Lewica and PiS) to join forces (let's say after PiS abandons more extreme religiously guided policies and Lewica abandons their radical pro-European stance) - so what?: they are not ready or willing to (despite people like Rafał Woś calling for it)

Because if you ask a yes or no question it should be clear what you say yes or no to.Referendum questionsshould be clear and precise.

The aim of this referendum was not obtaining genuine answers to genuine questions, but to increase the support for the PiS party.

Thus it is irrelevant to discuss the wording of the questions.