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Poland's post-election political scene


OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,821
PiS are making mistakes

Only those who do nothing make no mistakes. I do not set PiS policy and am not privy to all the facts and circumstances of the ruling body politic. There are usually reasons for everything. Sacking someone might seem so easy and starightforward to a dilletante or wannabe observing things from afar, but such a move might hypothetically pose a security or other threat to the country or entail some other crucial counterproductive element. Such a one, for insatnce, might be in possession of super-sensitive classified information, to cite but one possibility. Ruling a country is a trifle different from little boys playing with their toy soldiers.
mafketis 24 | 9,385
30 Apr 2017 #2,822
"Sacking someone might seem so easy and starightforward to a dilletante or wannabe observing things from afar, but such a move might hypothetically pose a security or other threat to the country"

So you _do_ believe that Macierewicz would try to mount a coup if JK tried to dismiss him?

Getting to the point where firing an incompetent is a threat to national security is nothing something that happens with governments who are even remotely competent.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,823
mount a coup

Do you think in 2020 Tusk would "arrange" for Duda to have a "fatal accident" if the incumbant was much ahead of him in the pre-presidential polls? How can anybody know what's in the back of someone's mind. But no, I do not believe either option (Macierewicz or Tusk) is probable. But nothing is impossible, as history and poltics have shown. One thought that you pooh-poohed conspiracy theories. Have you made an exception for Macierewicz guided by subjective emotion?

BTW what does a "competent" government do when it needs to sack a member privy to a huge amount of the most sensitive classified information on national defence and security?
mafketis 24 | 9,385
30 Apr 2017 #2,824
"One thought that you pooh-poohed conspiracy theories"

One does, does one?

I don't believe in conspiracies per se, I believe that different groups have different agendas that they are not entirely.... open about.

"what does a "competent" government do when it needs to sack a member privy to a huge amount of the most sensitive classified information on national defence and security?"

Depends on why they need to remove him and how stable he is. If the member in question gives signs of being dangerously unstable the traditional solution has been to arrange for him to stop breating. If he's more or less stable then a reclusive retirement is probably enough.

nb this is meant to be descriptive (what I think happens) and not a prescriptive (what I think would be moral).

But then a competent government doesn't normally go around appointing mentally unstable kooks to positions that give them asscess to sensitive classified information on national defense (much less put them in charge of it). But we're talking about PiS and so 'competent' is not the first word that comes to mind anyway.
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,825
For anyone fooled by jon - those are not neo-Nazis, Nazi, not even fascist.

See the photo in post #2804. Perhaps they're wearing uniforms and making Hitler salutes by mistake...

Fire Waszczykowski and Macierewicz

Kaczynski is too politically weak to do that.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,826
'competent'

The most incompetent thing ever done by the post-commune aka III RP was to eschew de-communisation and replace it with a wholly emasculated version of "lustration". It was the Kaczyńskis, Macierewicz, Olszewski and several other foresightful conservative politicians that were spearheading the drive to begin a Free Poland with a clean slate so there would be no doubt who the vivtims and victimisers were. Those with things on their conscience (of which the Nocna zmiana crew were only a tiny fraction) opted for sweeping evething under the rug and giving the masses of servilistic pro-Soviet stooges a carte blanche and a guarantgeed good life in III RP. That issue cotninues to haunt the Polish body politic and will continue to do so well into the fututre.

Admit it, your ulterior and sole motive is PiS-bashing -- giving it some semblance of thoughful debate is mere window-dressing.
mafketis 24 | 9,385
30 Apr 2017 #2,827
"Admit it, your ulterior and sole motive is PiS-bashing -- giving it some semblance of thoughful debate is mere window-dressing."

I'm in favor of what works. Any attempt to settle accounts in 1992 would inevitably have ended up as a nightmare and result in massive investment flight and set economic development back (at a time when Poland could not afford that).

I have no problem with a dispassionate examination of who did what and punishing the guilty, but again this requires careful, dispassionate examination (and being ready to deal with lots of shade of grey) and not wild cat releasing of documents and trying to turn a normal political process (an incompetent and failing government losing a no-confidence vote) into some dark conspiracy.

The problem is that there is no one really qualified to lead such a process (least of all Kaczyński and his unstable posse).
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,828
I don't believe in conspiracies per se

Whenever people gather to plot something in private, that can be called a conspiracy. In in other words, every cabinet meeting, board meeting, staff meeting, strategy or planning session, in-group conference, etc. closed to the media and public, fall into that category.

BTW have you noticed that one usually attritbutes conspiracies to one's poltical foes, but when they accuse us of that we respond that "again they're trotting out their conspiracy theories!"
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,829
set economic development back

Somehow other ex-Soviet satellites managed. Yes, there would have been maybe a year or two of tension nad uncertainty, but it would have soon been over and done with.Do you regard this issue dragging on into its second half-century to be a beneficial development? The second most incompetent thing was to hand the ecnomomy over to that Soroist Balcerman who without batting an eye-lash and without even a trace of social conscience caused wisdepsread joblessness and demolished or sold off the country's industrial assets rather than even trying to create an indigenous enterpreneruial class. Sure it takes a long time, but when was he planning to start-- in 2085? At least he was true to his mentor and sponsor Soros whose ultimate aim is to undermine countries and deprive them of their national integrity, sovereignty, identity and pride.
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,830
making Hitler salutes by mistake

No chance for mistake here, someone deliberately photoshopped it.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,831
photoshopped

Recently we have seen Tusk behind bars and in a Wehrmacht uniform.
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,832
No chance for mistake here, someone deliberately photoshopped it.

Nope, Wulky. The photo is genuine and is one of many such.
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,833
The photo is genuine and is one of many such.

Then they are not ONR members, maybe antifa hooligans doing provocation.
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,834
Nope Wulky, they're ONR neo-nazis demonstrating here in Poland. Here's another.
Onr salut
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,835
Show me the picture like that on their website.
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,836
Don't be silly. Why would anyone remotely care about or trust for even one second what images neo-nazis put on their own website or even want to look at such a site. Here's another picture of them in their silly uniforms.
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,837
Why would anyone remotely care about or trust for even one second what neo-nazis put on their own website

You would care if you wanted to prove your point but you can't, as usual.
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,838
The camera doesn't lie Wulky, unlike yourself. Fancy some more photos of ONR neo-nazis? The internet has hundreds of them.
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,839
Fancy some more photos of ONR neo-nazis

From the reliable source, yes why not.
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,840
All photos from reliable sources already, Wulky.

Anyway, great to hear that yesterday's brownshirt march wasn't much of a success.
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,841
All photos from reliable sources already

None of them unfortunately.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,842
what images neo-nazis put on

again you are demonstrating the blinkered nature of PC creeps and their head-in-sand tactic. Check out the ONR website and see for yourself: onr.com.pl

I never had earlier. Not a single Heil-Hitler salute. Insetad they have been collecting food for homeless dogs, protesting against a blashpemous theatre play, honourign Doomed Soldiers, holding a March of Shades and a symbolic funeral for pre-natally murdered infants.

I strongly disagree with many Poles who say they wouldn't touch Michnik's rag with a barge-pole. I regularly read their website the know what the other side is thinking, saying and doing. You should too: DoRzeczy, wSieci, Uważam Rze, Gazeta Polska, Nasz Dziennik, Niedziela, Gość NIedzielny, Powściągliwość i Praca and many, many more that write the truth, not anarcho-lefitist drivel, codswallop and propaganda.
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,843
Photos don't lie, Po. Their website does.
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,844
Because jon said so, because it suits his agenda :-)
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
30 Apr 2017 #2,845
Photos don't lie

But photo-shopped ones do! Or maybe Tusk in Wehrmacht attire is for real? Or maybe that was his "dziadek w Wehrmachcie!" For the time being at least Tusk behind bars is a photo-montage, but it could also be an accurate prediction of what may well come to pass once his EU immunity evaporates.
cms 9 | 1,271
30 Apr 2017 #2,846
I thought that their leader said they were giving salutes, but not Nazi ones, merely Roman ones ? Which makes all the difference.

What crimes do you think Tusk has committed ?
jon357 66 | 17,069
30 Apr 2017 #2,847
Which makes all the difference.

Indeed. Same ideology, same salute, same context.
mafketis 24 | 9,385
30 Apr 2017 #2,848
"What crimes do you think Tusk has committed?"

Don't go askjing awkward questions... his handlers haven't told him yet.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
30 Apr 2017 #2,849
What crimes do you think Tusk has committed ?

Tuskomatol supports and protects world terrorist sponsoring Gulf states ,ethic cleansing of Kurds in Turkey,massacres of Houtis in Yemen,murdering civilians by Israel in Syria,arming al nusra front in Syria.he condom war crimes of "moderates" jihadists in Syria,he supports and fund white helmets war criminals in syria, and Neonazi criminals and Olighars criminals in Ukraine,prosecution and occupation of palestynians .did i miss anything?.criminal scum like rest of em EU and UK leaders.
Wulkan - | 3,250
30 Apr 2017 #2,850
What crimes do you think Tusk has committed ?

Amber gold?

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