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Poland's post-election political scene


dolnoslask
29 Jan 2016 #781
PiS are not leading anything, because they're actually one of the most socialist parties in Europe right now.

Better than being a liberal caught in the headlights unable to make any useful decision.

What do you find wrong with socialism Delph you do surprise me, I thought that you stood and demonstrated on the side of the poor and the rights of the workers?, maybe you are just leading a political section and demonstrating to further your own political aspirations, rather than have concern for the humble polish man in the street.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
29 Jan 2016 #782
.who states that refugees "bring diseases....."

have you seen the scenes at the borders - why all policemen and border guards wear protectory masks? because they think it is funny?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
29 Jan 2016 #783
Better than being a liberal caught in the headlights unable to make any useful decision.

Well, given that their decisions involve destroying the country... more to the point, PiS are usually all talk when it comes to not being liberal - they've gone very cold on the idea of banning abortion for instance.

maybe you are just leading a political section and demonstrating to further your own political aspirations, rather than have concern for the humble polish man in the street.

I have everything against short term populism/electoral sausage policies. Poland was on the right track, but throwing away a lot of money on misguided socialist policies is a terrible idea because we need that money for tomorrow. I would much rather see 500zł extra spent on every child's education a month - for the 17 billion or so that it's going to cost, we could have an amazing educational system.

More to the point, it's obvious that the money for these socialist policies is coming from the ordinary man in the street. The banks aren't losing money (they've just increased fees), the supermarkets aren't losing money (they'll just raise prices/squeeze their suppliers) - so who loses? We do.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
29 Jan 2016 #784
for the 17 billion or so that it's going to cost, we could have an amazing educational system.

are you aware that just throwing money into a system doesn't necesarilly make it better in the short run - you need structural changes and a long term policy - and you first need to recognize the many problems public education has and think about possible solutions - lastly the money the state is going to pay to parents can well end up being spent on education of the children just not in the public system
jon357 66 | 17,068
29 Jan 2016 #785
More to the point, it's obvious that the money for these socialist policies is coming from the ordinary man in the street.

Their 'policies' will just cost people's jobs. Polish bond yields are already scarily high and the effect on the economy is shocking.

People are genuinely pessimistic about the future. The only positive thing is that as soon as there's an election, PiS will be out.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
29 Jan 2016 #786
as soon as there's an election, PiS will be out.

Except that 9 out of 10 polls says otherwise :))))
jon357 66 | 17,068
29 Jan 2016 #787
See the poll above, and others posted here. They suggest the exact opposite of what you are trying to pretend.

Nobody here is optimistic in any sense about this awful regime - every step they take is damaging the economy, restricting freedoms, damaging the country's international reputation.

A gift for Russia who just love the instability the Kaczynski gang have caused.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
29 Jan 2016 #788
Nobody here

Except people that gave them victory in elections. You are a far left foreign homosexual. Your opinion on them is worth nothing.
jon357 66 | 17,068
29 Jan 2016 #789
people that gave them victory in el

Don't be silly. They got in due to a low turnout with only 18% of voters falling for their lies and hysteria.

You would have to look hard here in Warsaw to find anyone who has anything good to say about them.

foreign

When did you last live in Poland? Which decade?
gumishu 11 | 5,605
29 Jan 2016 #790
They got in due to a low turnout with only 18% of voters falling for their lies and hysteria.

the turnout was over 50 per cent and was higher than in the parliamentary elections in 2011 - Polish parliamentary election turnout never crossed the 55 per cent threshold since 1989

name the lies of PiS in the campaing will you ? - or what do you mean by hysteria actually - care to elaborate?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
29 Jan 2016 #791
are you aware that just throwing money into a system doesn't necesarilly make it better in the short run

Still, the Finns got it right - they conducted thorough non-partisan research into education, then threw money at the entire system from top to bottom.

As for the money from the state, we all know that we're going to see endless media reports of how people are spending the money on vodka, golf fees and gym memberships. Even ordinary PiS members have been very open about how it's desperately unfair that wealthy people will also be gaining and yet there won't be any controls on what the money is spent on.

A gift for Russia who just love the instability the Kaczynski gang have caused.

It's a huge gift for Russia. They had a minor foothold into the EU with Orban, but to have Poland pushing away so hard from European norms is a huge gift to him. He knows fine well that an isolated Poland is a weak Poland.

You are a far left foreign homosexual.

Greggy, I wasn't aware that you also thought about gay sex constantly.

Don't be silly. They got in due to a low turnout with only 18% of voters falling for their lies and hysteria.

Exactly. If that guy from Razem hadn't pulled off the debate performance of a lifetime, ZL would have taken 10% and PiS would have been left to form a very messy coalition with Kukiz.

Nobody here is optimistic in any sense about this awful regime - every step they take is damaging the economy, restricting freedoms, damaging the country's international reputation.

They don't care, as long as they get TKM.
jon357 66 | 17,068
29 Jan 2016 #792
Check the figures. 18% of voters were daft enough to choose them and as I said, here in Warsaw you do not hear a good word said about them.

They have destabilised the economy, attacked constitutional democracy, broken into a NATO premises and compromised press freedom. All in a spectacularly short time. Plus alienating neighbouring countries. They are a gift for Russia who relish instability in Europe.
polishinvestor 1 | 362
29 Jan 2016 #793
Polls do matter as they often cause the government to rein in policies, but in this case I dont think polls will have too much effect. They have a plan and are prepared to fall on their sword if necessary. They will have their 4 years, but on the current path its likely to be a last term for a long time. History shows this, so there isnt a great need to do anything as nothing really can be done. As long as the country is able to vote in 4 years, the outcome is clear from a historical perspective.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
29 Jan 2016 #794
As long as the country is able to vote in 4 years

There will be a vote, but PiS will try and manipulate it as much as possible.

The only thing saving Poland right now is that PiS don't have control over most provinces.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
29 Jan 2016 #795
here in Warsaw

1. Your "partners" and such are hardly typical Poles.
2. Warsaw population is ~5% of this nation.

PiS won democratic elections and +99% of their voters are happy with what they do. If you hate democracy, that's your problem.
jon357 66 | 17,068
29 Jan 2016 #796
The only thing saving Poland right now is that PiS don't have control over most provinces

The local elections will be significant here. The way things are looking, it will be a crushing defeat for them.
polishinvestor 1 | 362
29 Jan 2016 #797
Dont forget Kaczynski and PIS have had to sit 8 years on the sidelines watching. They have had time to plan their actions, play them out, see the consequences and change them. So as I say, as long as there is a vote. Its a very small possibility but you have to hedge against all negative outcomes.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
29 Jan 2016 #798
PiS won democratic elections and +99% of their voters are happy with what they do.

Making up stuff again Greggy, given that opinion polls are showing that they lost the centrist electorate very quickly.

The way things are looking, it will be a crushing defeat for them.

I suspect they're going to try and change the local election laws to help them. But you're right - it's still a long time until those elections, and if they take a beating in those elections and the European ones a few months afterwards, they're going to have nowhere to go.
Borsukrates 5 | 131
29 Jan 2016 #799
PiS won democratic elections and +99% of their voters are happy with what they do.

LOL!! This isn't even true for people who voted for PiS. Some voted for PiS because relatively moderate Szydło, Duda were put in front and Macierewicz, Kurski, Kaczyński, Ziobro were hidden. They jumped right out after elections. Long story short, PiS deceived their own voters.

By the way, 51.6% (attendance) * 39% = 23% of people legally allowed to vote. What about the rest ?









gumishu 11 | 5,605
29 Jan 2016 #800
What about the rest ?

the rest mostly didn't care (almost 50 per cent) - what are you going to do about that?
jon357 66 | 17,068
29 Jan 2016 #801
They jumped right out after elections

It was a strategy that some certainly fell for and one that was fairly obvious for the start but I suspect not actually that many fell for it - sadly perhaps just enough to get them a foot in the door. Looking at the election results per region, the 18% who voted for them were mostly their (dwindling due to natural wastage) core rural granny voters.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
29 Jan 2016 #802
natural wastage

what a lovely choice of words jon - I congratulate you
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
29 Jan 2016 #803
he rest mostly didn't care (almost 50 per cent) - what are you going to do about that?

Public disobedience? If others don't care, why should we? Anything that weakens this government is worthy.
jon357 66 | 17,068
29 Jan 2016 #804
what a lovely choice of words jon - I congratulate you

Thanks.

For that's exactly what it is - their core demographic are above all over a certain age (and nobody gets younger), poorly educated, superstitious and short of money. And very negative in outlook.

When they were thrown out of office at the earliest opportunity last time (when the turnout was much bigger), one of the many popular campaigns was called "hide granny's ID card'.

And given their hatred of the health system, their attacks on the economy and their desire to make everyone poor one can expect their only demographic of loyal voters to have been dropping like flies before the next election
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
30 Jan 2016 #805
one can expect their only demographic of loyal voters to have been dropping like flies before the next election

And that is desperately sad. My own mother died too early, and I always called my wife's (late) mum my second mother in affectionate moments, which she reciprocated. She was a leading Katowice Solidarity activist and was perhaps fortunate not to be interned in Martial Law. But the Kaczyńskis and their ilk and Radio Maria brainwashed her without mercy, just like the communists tried to do before them.

The second generation who can see that reality have at the very least a deep dislike of that distortion of truth and history.
But someone here posted that Poles will never accept political pluralism, and I (very unhappily) nominate him for the past 2015 Polish Forums "In a Nutshell" award.
jon357 66 | 17,068
30 Jan 2016 #806
But the Kaczyńskis and their ilk and Radio Maria brainwashed her without mercy, just like the communists tried to do before them.

Yes, it's extremely sad - exactly the same way of thinking, absolutism.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
30 Jan 2016 #807
When you think about it, Jarosław is probably one of the absolute best politicians in Europe today. He's managed to create an entire political cult with him at the helm, and no matter what disgusting things he does, the 25% or so of society that supports PiS blindly continue to do so regardless. But the whole strategy has been devastatingly effective - he built up a media empire that treats him like some sort of demigod (Gazeta Polska awarding him the title of 'human of the year' is a great example), he's brainwashed a lot of the poor that he is their only saviour and much more. Yet - you can clearly see that he has no real convictions. He jumped on the Catholic bandwagon when it became obvious that the winds were blowing that way, yet he backed off on many things that the RCC was expecting from him such as a ban on abortion. He jumped on the miners cause, yet abandoned them post-election. Poland is becoming a laughing stock internationally, people are getting poorer because of these taxes, yet the cult still continues to worship him. It's surreal.

...well, it would be surreal, if it wasn't bloody obvious that he was simply using exactly the same tactics as the PZPR used. The simplistic language, the heavy use of the media, the cult of the leader - it's all straight out of communism. Even the crude way in which PiS supporters abuse the opposition is very reminiscent of how the PZPR did the same to their enemies.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
30 Jan 2016 #808
Jarosław is probably one of the absolute best politicians in Europe today.

The Polish Thatcher. Without the market policies of course, but a demagogue all the same. I regret not being in the UK for the street parties when Thatcher died but if I outlive this Berkshire Hunt I will hold a very big party, and that's a given.

It was amazing that nobody celebrated the sunglass wearing general's death, but maybe people were tired.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
30 Jan 2016 #809
The Polish Thatcher.

No, the Polish Thatcher is yet to come. My gut feeling is that the 2019 election is going to be based on a Polish Thatcher turning up, pointing out the utter mess over the last 4 years and promising to decisively and quickly privatise profitable businesses and close state-owned companies that are losing money. It will be a straight fight between the socialism of PiS vs the liberalism of the Thatcherite candidate, nothing more.

It was amazing that nobody celebrated the sunglass wearing general's death, but maybe people were tired.

Problem is, hating his guts became associated with supporting PiS. It's the same reason why a lot of normal people are sick and tired of hearing about all these historical figures, because it's all associated with PiS. It's very tragic.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,245
30 Jan 2016 #810
hating his guts became associated with supporting PiS

Yes - they hijacked everything. I am beginning to understand, after living in this mixed up country for 23 years. All I know is, I could not have pillow talk with a PIS lady :))))

And the labrador would in all likelihood growl anyway ( which would be funny, as he is generally mute as a point of reference)
PS: i agree totally about the vision, but refuse to agree that Thatcher was right on the UK political scene of the time.

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