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Poland's post-election political scene


PolAmKrakow 1 | 590
17 Jul 2020 #3,991
@Spike31
US doesn't need Poland for presence and irritating effect to Russia. Latvia is begging the US to come in. This is the Polish problem, they think the US needs them when the US only tolerates them as a government. The US never sticks to one country forever. They use them as long as needed and move on. Iraq, Kuwait, and others come to mind.

Trump is one thing. Loyal. He just proved that by pardoning Roger Stone. He didn't care what anyone thought. He wasn't going to see his friend in jail, and he wont let Poland push this one around either. If we're going to discuss this, lets at least do it honestly and not color it with hopes and dreams. No way Trump brings her home. She will resign if Trump is done after November.

Be careful what you wish for. Biden will put s very smart politician in place and Biden though a "nice" guy, wont allow himself to look soft. He will have a pandemic to deal with and he will have to be hard. What did Poland get under Obama? Nothing. And Biden will continue that with a huge troop reduction right away.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
17 Jul 2020 #3,992
and he wont let Poland push this one around either.

From her personal biography, I don't think she's going to let anyone push her around. She's not intimidated in the slightest by PiS, nor is she reliant on keeping faceless bureaucrats in Washington happy. The only person that could remove her is Trump, but even then, you have to question whether someone with her connections is reliant on him.

Trump was incredibly astute by picking her to go to Warsaw, and it's a huge pity that he didn't surround himself with such similarly talented people in his administration.
Spike31 2 | 2,110
17 Jul 2020 #3,993
US doesn't need Poland for presence and irritating effect to Russia. Latvia is begging the US to come in.

It's not about "irritating" Russia but about controlling the situation in a key region of Central Europe. And Latvia with its 3 mil. population and non-existent military force is not a serious option to do so.

Any US bases established in such a small country next to the Russian border would be swept away in the first wave of attack. The Baltic states are almost undefendable from Russia - from a military point of view - in a large scale conflict.

Poland occupies a key position in the heart of Europe which is a curse in case of European full scale West vs East conflict but a blessing when it comes to international trade routes and geopolitical advantage in times of peace or a local conflict, like we have now.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
18 Jul 2020 #3,994
to curb government-independent media because

where were you when the police raided Wprost headquarter when they started publishing stenograms of PO politicians revealing their attitudes and even scandals on their part
mafketis 24 | 9,387
18 Jul 2020 #3,995
Another play from the authoritarian playbook..... normalize domestic violence (de facto defend it on grounds of 'tradition' or 'family values' or 'culture' or 'religion')

PiS wants to withdraw from the Istanbul convention because domestic violence is apparently a key part of Polish culture....

kobieta.onet.pl/polska-wypowie-konwencje-stambulska-minister-rodziny-przygotowujemy-sie-do-tego/7jcnrm2
Spike31 2 | 2,110
18 Jul 2020 #3,996
because domestic violence is apparently a key part of Polish culture

Poland has one of the lowest rates of domestic violence in Europe

fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-survey-at-a-glance-oct14_pl.pdf
gumishu 11 | 5,605
18 Jul 2020 #3,997
Istanbul convention because domestic violence is apparently a key part of Polish culture

Istanbul convention calls homosexual realtionships marriages and as such could be used to introduce same sex marriages in Poland - Poland has enough of it's own anti- domestic-violence legislation - no need to sign any suspicious conventions
PolAmKrakow 1 | 590
18 Jul 2020 #3,998
@Spike31
I agree with your assessment in basic form. In the game of politics though, the threat of moving assets to a different country is very real. Trump is not always rational, and he doesn't really care about Duda or PiS. Trump wants what he wants and gets what he wants when it comes to personnel. He wont let PiS influence his choice. PiS runs the risk of pi$$ing Trump off and thats never wise. I think we can all agree on that.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Jul 2020 #3,999
Istanbul convention calls homosexual realtionships marriages and as such could be used to introduce same sex marriages in Poland

Jesus, you really have swallowed PiS propaganda. Here's the full text of the convention: coe.int/en/web/conventions/full-list/-/conventions/rms/090000168008482e

Where, exactly, does it state anything about homosexual relationships?

As we see from Gummi's post, it's very easy to make people believe that it's a good thing. They won't read the convention for themselves, they'll just believe that it's being used for 'evil' purposes against the will of the 'nation'.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
18 Jul 2020 #4,000
coe.int/en/web/conventions/full-list/-/conventions/rms/090000168008482e

I have copypasted the link and it opens their home page
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Jul 2020 #4,001
If it doesn't work, try this as a overview that debunks the claim that it can be used to force same sex marriage on signatory countries.

evnreport.com/politics/the-istanbul-convention-digested

I looked through the convention, and there's actually nothing about homosexual relationships in it. Marriage is discussed solely in terms of preventing forced marriages, which I'm sure you agree with, right?
gumishu 11 | 5,605
18 Jul 2020 #4,002
conventions/rms/090000168008482e

ok I found this.. but to my understanding this is a synopsis (although rather large) and not the text of the convention

evnreport.com/politics/the-istanbul-convention-digested

I don't want digests - I want the literal text of the convention

to my understanding this is a synopsis

ok, it looks like it is the actual text of the convention - and yes I haven't found anything about same sex couples - I guess the contentious thing is the definition of domestic violence or the passages like this : 'Parties are required to: ... prohibit discrimination including through the recourse to sanctions" and similarly vague passages
pawian 176 | 14,299
18 Jul 2020 #4,003
and yes I haven't found anything about same sex couples

That`s good. Will you spread the good word about the convention among your disciples now? ?
mafketis 24 | 9,387
19 Jul 2020 #4,004
I guess the contentious thing is

PiS trying to rile you up and make you angry so that you don't notice how they're wrecking everything....

Even if domestic violence rates are low in Poland, authoritarian governments like to do what they can to normalize violence at all levels of society so that people accept violent government oppression as just the way things work, Putin and Erdogan (who also resist anything trying to limit domestic violence) are good examples.
gumishu 11 | 5,605
19 Jul 2020 #4,005
your disciples now? ?

my disciples? what disciples?

authoritarian governments like to do what they can to normalize violence

I think, you are paranoid,
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,958
19 Jul 2020 #4,006
Crime figures are always low if if the crime isn't considered worth reporting because it won't be taken seriously or indeed recorded. .
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
19 Jul 2020 #4,007
PiS trying to rile you up and make you angry so that you don't notice how they're wrecking everything....

It's a time-tested tactic. While he's busy rallying against the Convention, his eyes are closed to the way that PiS just changed the rules so that members of the Sejm don't have to declare outside work.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,958
19 Jul 2020 #4,008
Yes times have changed/are changing all over...
mafketis 24 | 9,387
19 Jul 2020 #4,009
As our resident malignant narcissist points out.... his brand of..... Christianity apparently does not disapprove of domestic violence as long as the victim is prevented from leaving the marriage. In fact he appears to find sex with victims of violence to be "the best"....

The cultural issues that PiS is supposedly worried about are not in the convention so withdrawing from it is symbolic support of normalizing violence in the name of tradition.
pawian 176 | 14,299
19 Jul 2020 #4,010
my disciples? what disciples?

OK, so let`s cut out any disciples and the question is: Will you spread the good word about the convention which doesn`t contain any mention of gay marriages? ?
gumishu 11 | 5,605
19 Jul 2020 #4,011
I don't frequent any other forums except for this one
pawian 176 | 14,299
19 Jul 2020 #4,012
This is called addiction.
pawian 176 | 14,299
20 Jul 2020 #4,013
Those 48% weren't votes in favour of militant LGBT. They weren't even in favour of Trzaskowski. Those were anti-Duda votes.

Of course, they were for unmilitant LGBT. Yes, anti-Duda whose party made LGBT the main issue in the campaign again. The result ? - anti Duda vote equals support or at least neutrality for LGBT.

I am really amazed you don`t get such simple things.
Spike31 2 | 2,110
21 Jul 2020 #4,014
anti Duda vote equals support or at least neutrality for LGBT.

No, it doesn't. There are many moderate-left older voters who are against Duda, against PiS or even against Right-wing conservatism in general, but are in favour of traditional values when it comes to family and society.
pawian 176 | 14,299
21 Jul 2020 #4,015
Yes, but being in favour of traditional values doesn`t exclude neutrality - I am afraid you missed that in my last post. If they were against LGBT, they wouldn`t go voting at all. Simple.

It is surprising you don`t understand that PIS made a plebiscite about LGBT and people perfectly realised it. That is why the result with 2% margin is a true clue how many people don`t consider LGBT a threat to Poles and Poland. Simple

In next elections, it will be 55%. In 10 years` time, 65%. You can`t stop the avalanche once it has moved. Simple.
Spike31 2 | 2,110
21 Jul 2020 #4,016
they wouldn`t go voting at all

They went to vote not because they were in favour of militant LGBT but simply because they were against Duda and, in general, against PiS.

LGBT was an important part of campaign but the political division in Poland is much deeper than that and last longer than militant LGBT issue.

Anyway, this way or another anti-LGBT Duda won. Those were a 4th major elections (6 if you include less important EU elections) lost by a "total opposition" and they've learned nothing from it. Which is great because I don't want them to take over power in Poland ever again but rather to be left to rot in a role of a permament political opposition.

PiS should be firmly replaced in the future by Konfederacja and not by "total opposition" which is even worse than PiS...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
21 Jul 2020 #4,017
Four mentions of LGBT in one short post on Polish politics! Sounds as if the LGBT issue were a central question of it.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
21 Jul 2020 #4,018
LGBT issue were a central question of it.

Well the majority of opposition posters where i am had graffiti such as " to lgbt" (this lgbt) so you might have a point.
pawian 176 | 14,299
21 Jul 2020 #4,019
Sounds as if the LGBT issue were a central question of it.

That`s good coz the more they talk about it, the more people get used to the issue. This 2% gap is a very optimistic prognosis for the future. Victory is close, we shall fight on. Poles must do their best to make Poland a fully Christian country where nobody is discriminated.

Well the majority of opposition posters where i am had graffiti such as " to lgbt" (this lgbt) so you might have a point.

That was perpetrated by poor brainwashed citizens who allowed false prophets to influence them. We should say prayers for them coz they don`t know what they are doing.
mafketis 24 | 9,387
21 Jul 2020 #4,020
graffiti such as " to lgbt" (this lgbt)

More like "this is lgbt" (referring to the candidate - or maybe 'he's a fag')

a fully Christian country where nobody is discriminated.

"discriminated against" is the correct form

In general, I think that gay rights are a wonderful civilizational advance (recognizing that non-conformists have a place in and can contribute to society as well).

That said, there are aspects of some fringe lgbt issues that I'm not comfortable with but it's impossible to discuss here because most people can only argue with empty slogans and not with ideas.

I'm not okay with drag queen story hours (which several sexual offenders have taken part in...) Drag is entertainment for adults not children.

I'm not okay with the current transgender movement (which is incredibly regressive and/or insane).

I'm not okay with legalizing polyamory situations

I'm not okay with normalizing the sexualization of children (not just a lgbt issue - some of the worst offenders are heterosexual men sexualizing pre-pubescent girls or even worse the girls' mothers)

LGBT issues were only a kind of sideshow in the recent election, which should have been a home run for PiS but even with the entire state mechanism openly campaigning for Duda (in a really unprecedented way) it was a squeaker. Not a good long term prognosis for the health of PiS (which has no chance in h3ll of surviving JK.

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