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The Iran war and Poland


Ironside  51 | 13457
16 Jun 2025   #91
What evidence do you 'need'?

I disagree with your view on those negotiations. It's simple, really. You believe Iran has been offered generous terms, while I think those negotiations have hidden motives aimed at bringing Iran into submission.
---
Hence the bombing of the sites where they do it

Regarding the bombing of the sites, I think they were misled and ended up bombing only decoys.
Bobko  28 | 2651
16 Jun 2025   #92
That's them Mullah's for **** sake

You keep going on and on about Mullahs, but all it shows is how uninformed you are about modern Iran.

Ayatollah Khamenei is THE NUMBER 1 REASON Iran still does not have a nuclear weapon.

He has spoken extensively about the immorality of nuclear weapons, and has placed a fatwa on their development. The Revolutionary Guards, and the civilian foreign ministers always reference the Ayatollah's fatwa, when arguing why they are not weaponizing.

Iran has a complex society. It's an Islamic theocratic democracy (if you can imagine such a thing).

It has a civilian government, which is elected and runs 99% of normal day-to-day life. It is these democratically elected civilian governments which have been sometimes problematic, not just for the West but even for the Ayatollah. None more so than the government of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Hanging gay people from cranes, whipping young people for immodest dress, kidnapping people off the street for other perceived moral vices - this is what Ahmadinejad was all about. After a while, it really started grating on the Iranian population. Then it exploded into nationwide protests that lasted a year, following an election that was suspected to be rigged against Moussavi - the moderate opposition candidate.

The leader of the opposition, in many ways, was not Moussavi but another Ayatollah, of quite moderate views. The Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri. It was the most real threat to the Islamic Republic since its founding. The so called Green Movement, was a backlash against the extremism of Ahmadinejad, and his policy of permanent confrontation with the West.

Eventually, Ahmadinejad's downfall was orchestrated by the Ayatollah himself. He has since spoken about the dangers presented by radicals, and has been a good partner to the much more moderate governments of Raisi and Pezeshkian.

Nobody remembers Ahmadinejad in Iran anymore, except to curse his name.
Bobko  28 | 2651
16 Jun 2025   #93
So having established that the Ayatollah Khamenei is not in favor of nuclear weapons, but rather wants to stay just below the threshold to maintain strategic ambiguity - then who does? I'm not sure, but let's go down the list.

Radically anti-Zionist civilian governments. One has to note that there is not one in power right now.

Hardline members of the IRGC. This I'm less inclined to believe, because these guys have the most to lose. Some experts estimate the amount of businesses the IRGC controls in Iran is such that the annual revenue exceeds $20 billion. Why would these guys try to destroy the goose that lays the golden eggs? Iranian sepoys are not stupid.

Fringe clerics with radicalized bases. This is more... concerning. It is known that Iran's establishment has trouble on both ends. From liberals, and from hardliners. At the moment the liberals seem to be mollified, and instead the hardliners are in ascendancy. Thanks to what? Thanks to Israel's unprovoked attack.

How does the Ayatollah ward off hardliners? By becoming more hard line himself. He's done this in the past by helping Ahmadinejad into power, and then regretted it bitterly.
Bobko  28 | 2651
16 Jun 2025   #94
The weakest and most inconsequential player in this whole picture is Iran's pathetic army - the Artesh.

They have been completely neutered, with their balls sliced off.

They don't have an opinion about anything, and no one asks them for one.

Their funding is a fraction of the funding of the IRGC, and they have no businesses they own which they could use to create patronage networks.

Just good old military people, that don't care neither about Israel nor about nukes.
Bobko  28 | 2651
16 Jun 2025   #95
Nobody responds to Bobko posts :((
Torq  17 | 1569
16 Jun 2025   #96
@Bobko

I'm not old enough to remember that but my Dad used to tell me how in 1967 and in 1973 the entire Poland (well, not the troglodytes but the entire thinking Poland - people that matter) were celebrating because "our Jews were f*cking up their Arabs". There is a bit of this elation in the air these days too, only this time our Jews are f*cking up your Persians.

Well, of course, things are a bit more complicated than that - majority of the current generation of Tzahal and intelligence services have their roots in Russia, not in Poland, but they had good masters who taught them well. They fight the good fight.

עם פולין חי

... and all that.

Nobody responds to Bobko posts :(

Your posts are too long, too complicated, and they contain difficult words.
Mr Grunwald  34 | 2206
16 Jun 2025   #97
@Bobko
I read them with interest, most of your posts are interesting and hard to disagree with. I don't have much to counter with. What can I say other then nothing.

I'm not old enough

Same same, my grandparents told me something similar at the time.
Bobko  28 | 2651
16 Jun 2025   #98
this time our Jews are f*cking up your Persians.

A myopic view.

Iran's interest, in this case, is Poland's interest.

If Iran loses - then this is not good for Poland. It would also be a serious additional argument for why Poland needs to develop nuclear weapons.

Poland is a natural partner for Iran. It's a great potential market for Polish exports. Its people are the most well-read and educated in the Middle East. There are historic ties between Persia and Poland - that I'm sure you yourself are aware of.

I don't have much to counter with

I'm not here to argue, and prove to everyone that nobody can be smarter than Bobko. But if these facts had changed your view, or made it more nuanced - these are things I want to know.

I'm against obscurantism. I want knowledge to flow in all directions, and I think this will make our societies happier.

Your posts are too long, too complicated, and they contain difficult words.

Richard is the uncontested genius for laying out complex thoughts in simple terms. I am not graced with the same talent as Mr. Mazur. It takes me a longer time to get my point across.
Torq  17 | 1569
16 Jun 2025   #99
A myopic view.

You see, that's what I'm talking about. Difficult words. And then you're surprised people don't reply to your posts.

Poland is a natural partner for Iran (...) There are historic ties between Persia and Poland

Quite right.

Our Persian friends, however, would seem to have chosen the side of God's eschatological enemies in the final battle of Armageddon. This is not a wise choice. Not wise at all. Luckily, not all is lost and if our man Bibi Netanyahu can pull off this regime change operation, a lot of new options and opportunities may open. Поживём - увидим, as our dear Russian brothers say.

I am not graced with the same talent as Mr. Mazur.

When you write something, first copy/paste it into ChatGPT and ask for a dumbed down version. Don't thank me.

Anyways, as our friend and dobri brat Crow says - all is well in the Universe, as a little bird told me. :)
Mr Grunwald  34 | 2206
16 Jun 2025   #100
I'm not here to argue

Weather one presents an argument to seek conflict (like many posters here do) or seek knowledge and share (like some posters do) or understand perspectives and what somebody thinks about to learn or make own adjustments (who even fewer posters or members do).

It still remains that I can merely present a opinion of little weight or knowledge. I have had little to do with Iran and only met two Persian women while being a student. I am limited to books, internet and newsmedia.

My information is basically only similar to a "average Joe". It ain't much, Iran is just that much on the radar for most and not much to be happy about. It's as simple as that.

Iran is very much isolated in the Middle East, not to mention at the world stage too.
OP jon357  73 | 24663
16 Jun 2025   #101
Some pretty big anti-regime demonstrations in Iran today.
Torq  17 | 1569
16 Jun 2025   #102
pretty big anti-regime demonstrations

Say what you want about Bibi, but when he does regime change he does regime change.
OP jon357  73 | 24663
16 Jun 2025   #103
He seems to, doesn't he.

There were protests before. Possibly with discreet support from other countries. This may well be the case now.
Barney  19 | 1816
16 Jun 2025   #104
If Iran loses - then this is not good for Poland

It's not good for anyone.

The support for Israel from the "west" is twofold, the idea that they are bringing civilisation to unsophisticated peoples and solving Europes Jewish problem. The power dynamic that the colony offers to the west explains why it gets unfettered support despite what it does. The narrative in the west is of a plucky little country having to defend itself from a hoard of savages. This is an easy story to digest especially when coupled with religious tropes hence the invention of judeo-Christian values. This theological idea was deliberately changed to an overt political idea during the Cold War and now used to demonise migrants. The shifting semantics fits nicely with the expansion of the colony and its perception in the west. No one used judeo-Christian values outside of theology before the mid century.

The gulf dictators with their unimaginable wealth are courted in an attempt to repatriate the filthy lucre and these despots are loving their 15 minutes in the limelight. They however live in glass palaces. the power dynamic is against them. They are like a wildly successful rock band but the managers will end up with the money. The accumulation of wealth in one place is not good economics or politics. Iran with all its flaws standing up for itself and its ideas is good for the world. One idea they have is a single state solution to the colonial problem in the Levantine. The portrayal of an end to Zionism meaning death to Jews is a twisting of the situation.

Basically racist tropes like they made the desert bloom, they are Arabs let them go elsewhere, they are shepherds and so on is basically the last acceptable racism (excluding anti Catholic stuff) among the chattering classes. This is changing despite Israeli censorship, you can't hide a live streamed genocide or push it aside with a load of platitudes. The latest abomination or IDF pastime, of starving people then shooting them when presented with the chance of obtaining food would trigger a very different response if it were anyone else.
OP jon357  73 | 24663
16 Jun 2025   #105
Basically racist tropes like they made the desert bloom

Hardly racists since they have.

No Arab state has functioned successfully (or managed to keep the electric on all the time) except KSA, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman who pay others to do it.

Dubai and Qatar are quite efficient however they are both minority Arab. Dubai is over 70% Indian.

they are Arabs let them go elsewhere

It's more that they have somewhere else to go. The majority of Israelis are descended from people who fled the MENA region due to pogroms and repression. They are from that region and have nowhere else to go.

What is Israel supposed to do? The two state solution was raped, murdered and dismembered like Hamas' victims on 7/10

Anyway, this thread is about Iran. One of the vilest and most repressive states in the modern world who were making nukes to destroy a democratic country (they have been explicit about this) and have attacked British ships in the Gulf.
Bobko  28 | 2651
16 Jun 2025   #106
except KSA, Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman who pay others to do it.

Yes they mostly employ Englishmen to do the managerial work, and Banglas, Pakis, and Indians to do the rest. Very nice carryover from the Raj.

You forgot to mention the Arabs that are flourishing, or at very least have no foreigners to do all the work:

1) The Lebanese

2) The Tunisians

3) The Algerians

4) The Morroccans

5) The Egyptians - a very large country, and very poor, but because of its enormous size - a country that definitely has more talented people than say - Bulgaria.

Lazy Hejazis that do no work, and sit on an ocean of oil are not representative of all the other hardworking Arabs out there.
Miloslaw  25 | 5523
16 Jun 2025   #107
The truth about what is happening in Iran;


OP jon357  73 | 24663
16 Jun 2025   #108
Yes they mostly employ Englishmen to do the managerial work, and Banglas, Pakis

Bangles yes. Brits not so much much unless it's Health&Safety, training and security.. Canadians and some Poles in education. More Filipinos, Indians, Sudanese Italians and Aussies doing various jobs otherwise,

It's better not to refer to Pakistani people like that. This is not 1955.

The others?

- Lebanon???? Flourishing???

- Tunisia? A dump with a small population and a capital built by the French. I go there sometimes to Tunis for work stuff. Rubbish piled high in the streets of the capital, power cuts, people fist fighting each other in public and open prostitution.

- Algerians? An unstable country with one of the highest corruption levels in the world, a dysfunctional economy and 30% unemployment. They can't keep the electric on either.

- Morocco? More Berber than Arab, again, a dysfunctional economy despite better agricultural conditions than the rest, again 30% unemployment, a massive disputed region and a guerilla war, no freedom of speech or media.

-Egypt. 110 million and growing, tens of thousands of political prisoners, no real economy, public debt that they can't pay and dependent on international aid for food. And they can't keep the electric on 24/7 either.
Novichok  6 | 9737
16 Jun 2025   #109
And they can't keep the electric on 24/7 either.

...and there is always some idiot who will insist that all races are equally intelligent!!! That is so funny I am going to pee ...

...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha......hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
Barney  19 | 1816
16 Jun 2025   #110
Hardly racists since they have.

Palestinians who lived in the levant for thousands of years developed their society as they saw fit even under the administration of the Ottomans. Claiming they lost the fight to manage it due to neglect is racism 101. Their society was destroyed by the British because they wanted to make their own decisions something that is fundamental to any people. Holding slave dictator states as some sort of high water mark is not a good look.

they have somewhere else to go

Yeah all Arabs are the same just like Africans all look alike. The Palestinians not ethnically cleansed are at danger of being cleansed. I may be repeating myself but Palestinians have thousands of years of connection to the land. The majority of Israeli Jews originate in Europe, America and former Soviet countries with no connection to the country. As a lapsed Catholic have as much biblical right to that land as any Jewish person ie none.

The two state solution as it was called was destroyed by Israel's refusal to negotiate because they didn't have to. The facilitators of genocide ie NATO ensure they don't have to negotiate.

Iran has been inspected non stop for decades and they have not been developing a nuclear bomb, they complied with every thing they signed up to. America didn't, as usual they lied for details see Iraq.
Miloslaw  25 | 5523
16 Jun 2025   #111
More truth;



Egyptians have no love for Palestinians(Jordanians).
Barney  19 | 1816
16 Jun 2025   #112
@Miloslaw
Please post YouTube videos elsewhere. Admin could open a thread for racist videos and you could post there. No one watches that crap
OP jon357  73 | 24663
16 Jun 2025   #113
Palestinians who lived in the levant for thousands of years developed their society as they saw fit

They didn't.

Yeah all Arabs are the same just like Africans all look alike

Africans don't all look alike, however there are very strong common cultural, social and economic traits within Arab societies as well as (apart from Lebanon) a near identical world view.

The two state solution as it was called was destroyed by Israel's refusal to negotiate because they didn't have

The two state solution was proposed by Israel. Arafat refused. He wanted it all.

1. How many leaders of palestine can you name before Arafat?
2. Why was there not a word of talk about a palestinian state (or country) at any point in time until after the 1967 six day war?

Egyptians have no love for Palestinians(Jordanians

Most residents of the Gaza Strip are Egyptian of course and arrives there in the 60s,70s and 80s.

Incidentally the 'resilience convoy' who say they're crossing North Africa and attempt to enter the Gaza Strip are attracting ridicule and dismay in the region. The words I heard today (in the MENA region, in a landlocked country to the south) was "exhibitionist", "r*SSia sponsored " and "seditious". Mostly they are attracting ridicule.
Novichok  6 | 9737
16 Jun 2025   #114
Palestinians have thousands of years of connection to the land.

She and others like her know how to disconnect them. 50 cents per disconnect...


Novichok  6 | 9737
16 Jun 2025   #115
Children, here is the shortest version of what took place over decades between Iran and Israel...

Iran: Death to Israel!

Israel: Leave us alone.

Iran: Death to Israel!

Israel: Fvck off!

Iran: Death to Israel!

Israel: Hold on just a minute...



Barney  19 | 1816
16 Jun 2025   #116
Why was there not a word of talk about a palestinian state (or country) at any point in time until after the 1967 six day war

That is just blind ignorance. your assertion that most Gazans are Egyptian is a common racist trope. Israelis claim that Said was Egyptian, Arafat was Egyptian despite the overwhelming evidence proving the claims are lies. Most Gazans trace their roots to Palestine proper, they were forced from their homes. Eurocentric meddling in that area disrupted everything because the people are seen as inferior needing to be civilised. Europeans have similar to what you describe. It would be mad to suggest Spanish speakers move to Italy to make way for colonists.

Thousands of years of history but Palestinians should be further cleansed for some nonsense about biblical rights which Christians and Muslims also have. Fact is the indigenous people have more right to the land.

Zionism is a European racist, political movement just like the Afrikaners.
Novichok  6 | 9737
16 Jun 2025   #117
your assertion that most Gazans are Egyptian is a common racist trope

Nobody gives a fvck. What counts is 10/7 and similar events.

Thousands of years of history but Palestinians should be

She doesn't gives a fvck, either...


Bobko  28 | 2651
16 Jun 2025   #118
Most Gazans trace their roots to Palestine proper

This is a matter of record, to the level of birth certificates.

Israelis are happily living on land that Palestinians had been expropriated from within the lifetime of their grandparents.

Like the Ukrainians, they have renamed cities (which carried the same name for a thousand years or more), renamed streets, reclaimed temples, and razed family plantings going back generations - all in the name of some historical fiction to which no one has any relation.

Fanatics. Zealots. Dangerous people.
Novichok  6 | 9737
17 Jun 2025   #119
renamed streets, reclaimed temples,

...they can set themselves on fire as long as they don't come to the US for any reason...
amiga500  5 | 1739
17 Jun 2025   #120
Thousands of years of history

ironically enough the palestinians in the northern west bank used to be Samaritans (israelites, pretty much jews) who later converted to islam.


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