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Poland fines singer for bashing Bible


FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
18 Jan 2012 #91
if something is bothering u, please use the report feature.

Yes Delph, please use the "report feature".
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Jan 2012 #92
I'm not following. Honestly, I don't follow. How does a 24 hour protest of SOPA/PIPA bring you to that conclusion?

The fact that your country even considered such a draconian bill kinda says it all. Oh, and we mustn't forget the Patriot Act while we're at it.

is this the new fashion.

At least you're listening ;)
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
18 Jan 2012 #93
The fact that your country even considered such a draconian bill kinda says it all.

I still don't follow. You came here to prove a point about freedom of speech in the USA, so prove it. I don't follow the connection. Tell me.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Jan 2012 #94
Haven't you actually read what the two proposed bills actually say?

And - as I said - the Patriot Act is a great example too.

Not to mention the massive self-censorship in America.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
18 Jan 2012 #95
Haven't you actually read what the two proposed bills actually say?

I have.

Now I'm asking you, again, to explain to me why the SOPA/PIPA 24-hour protest would bring you to say, "Hardly the land of "free speech", is it?"

I know what the two bills say, I just don't see how it makes the USA "hardly the land of free speech" so I'd appreciate it if you explained it to me.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
18 Jan 2012 #96
If you are talking about the issue discussed here ie,pop "singer" than I must inform you that you are wrong.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
18 Jan 2012 #98
Would there be a protest if America was the land of free speech?

Honestly, some people.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
18 Jan 2012 #99
Would there be a protest if America was the land of free speech?

Thank you. That's all I needed to know.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
18 Jan 2012 #100
When a country tells you what you can and cannot say = communism.

Actually, it's called fascism. Communism is a different kettle of fish, although one can be fascist and communist - like Stalin.

Agree with you on the rest though, stupid law is stupid, and fascism is baaad m'kay.

Having said that, worryingly, most of the world is veering towards more fascistic tendencies of late - including the gun totin' U S of A.

As you were.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
19 Jan 2012 #101
Oh, and we mustn't forget the Patriot Act while we're at it.

Patriot Act is the best thing this country has ever done. Long needed, too.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
19 Jan 2012 #102
Thoughts on this?

My mind on these types of issues is usually drawn to the words of the renowned jurist O.W Holmes, who pronounced words to the effect that freedom of speech should not protect one who would falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theatre. To some degree, this is apposite here. What do you think?

On the other hand, my mind is drawn to the historic Polish trait (generally speaking) of separating liberty from religious prescription - it was I believe King Zygmunt who, when pressed by the Papal legate to take action against heretics, uttered words to the effect of "Permit me Sir to be the King of the Sheep and the Goats".

Whilst it may be difficult to reconcile these two seemingly opposite modes of thought, it is possible if one takes into account the relative context (in a time/political sense) to when both freedom of religion and speech were postulated, and with a sprinkling of common sense.
milky 13 | 1,657
19 Jan 2012 #103
As an Atheist, I'm a little freaked out here sometimes, at how dependent the Polish people are on Christianity.In fairness, I do like reading about myths and legend as it is a spiritually rewarding exercise; even for a non believer. However, this country in my view, is just the lingering homeland of the old European right wing...., back to basics,Tea party,DUP type of thing. Saying that, PO,The modern Right(f0ck who you want but economics stay they same) are in power,so in relation to parliament the norm is king here.

I believe, like in Ireland(another victim of imperialism), Poland simply has a a very strong regressive nature due to its authoritarian past; but many Poles seem nationalistically grounded in Christianity, where as the Irish, they(we) don't have to look back very far in history to see a time when Christianity was just another 'invader'.

Poland need to accelerate asap out of the darkness; people here need to shake of their ultra conservative view(s), and wake up to the 21st century or at least the late 20th century;because if not,and the world economic down-turn continues, countries like this, could end up electing some dangerously reactionary old right wing party, and end up putting a lot of people in danger; Radio Maria viewers,I say no more.

In relation to this women getting a fine etc, I think people need to launch a counter attack,sort of like Father Ted in Ireland. Time to start laughing at the bastards, and hopefully the laughing will become contagious; even, to the extent that the the 'I don't knows' join in.
a.k.
19 Jan 2012 #104
at how dependent the Polish people are on Christianity

Please read the whole discussion, then you will see on what legal basis such cases are based. You people seem to make judgements so easly, not even bothering to learn the facts.

If she was offending Buddhists, Jewish or Muslims the verdict should be the same.

Poland need to accelerate asap out of the darkness; people here need to shake of their ultra conservative view(s), and wake up to the 21st century or at least the late 20th century;

Such patronising comments don't put you in a good light.

because if not,and the world economic down-turn continues, countries like this, could end up electing some dangerously reactionary old right wing party, and end up putting a lot of people in danger

This threat exists everywhere, even in liberal countries.

Time to start laughing at the bastards, and hopefully the laughing will become contagious

You wanna spread hate? What makes you different then from all those right wingers?
hythorn 3 | 580
19 Jan 2012 #105
Radio Maria viewers,I say no more

oh the irony

your lack of faith must come as a great comfort to you in these troubling times

I do not want to get a bad rep for bullying you and I do not know why other posters
seem to despise you the way they do nevertheless your comment about Radio Maria 'viewers'
was one of the more sensible things you posted in your thread

first rule of being an expat in Poland, don't bash the church.

without the church, Poland would not have survived
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
19 Jan 2012 #106
*we both know that isn't the case:)
I'm not sure I see where Doda was exhorting hatred based on religion. If I take her words at face value, they are her justification of the opinion she holds.

If someone wants to prove her wrong then so be it, but to fine people or convict them as criminals for stating something erroneous means there ought to be A LOT OF POLITICIANS AND JOURNALISTS AND CLERGY MEMBERS who are facing fines or are locked up.

That hasn't happened so the double standard is somewhat obvious. The very fact they needed language experts to discern if something was hateful or not is a CLEAR indication that intent and manipulation are really required on the receiver's behalf to "feel" insulted:

e-high five to JonnyM- that was awesome dude!
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,883
19 Jan 2012 #107
That hasn't happened so the double standard is somewhat obvious.

ANY time a country's government tells you what you can and can't say, there is already a double standard.

The Founding Fathers had it right. 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech. That's a democracy.

your lack of faith must come as a great comfort to you in these troubling times

I sir, will then say back to you, "your lack of atheism must come as a great comfort to you in these troubling times." Sounds weird, doesn't it? To have a lack of atheism?

"Un-repent" while you still have time!

Do I sound condescending yet?
milky 13 | 1,657
19 Jan 2012 #108
our lack of faith must come as a great comfort to you in these troubling times

Well, I balance my irrational and rational forces a little,In fact, I find the views of celeb atheist like Dawkins patronizing(at times) and pedantic', while the views of people like Karen Armstrong to be quite liberating.

I do not want to get a bad rep for bullying you

Go on say it , I don't mind. I don't mind all the personal attacks on my home and family situation from people who think I'm some American living in Krakow. It's abstract and hysterically funny for me;now!!! if people 'actually new me' and personally attacked my home and family, I would get to know them......

first rule of being an expat in Poland, don't bash the church.

I will heed your advice,thank you man.

people here need to shake of their ultra conservative view(s),

Sorry, I should have said 'SOME'. Most Pole I know don't dance to the the tune of radio maria.

If she was offending Buddhists, Jewish or Muslims the verdict should be the same.

And that's wrong.

This threat exists everywhere, even in liberal countries.

I agree....the Neo-Liberals have made the international mess.

You wanna spread hate?
No, I don't even listen to Radio Maria, I leave that job to them.
[quote=hythorn]without the church, Poland would not have survived

According to Czesław Miłosz,the same can be said about Russia and how they rebuilt the (Poland)country.
hythorn 3 | 580
19 Jan 2012 #109
Do I sound condescending yet?

not by a long chalk

you are not being remotely condescending

go in peace, my child

@milky

you have done nothing whatsoever to warrant personal attacks

why on earth would I want to abuse you?
milky 13 | 1,657
19 Jan 2012 #110
why on earth would I want to abuse you?

Good point man.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
19 Jan 2012 #111
ANY time a country's government tells you what you can and can't say,

Fine as a principle but how does that relate to the topic?

According to Czesław Miłosz,

Ah according to commie who wasn't sure whatever he is Polish or Lithuanian so he spend most of his life in the USA.
milky 13 | 1,657
19 Jan 2012 #112
commie

I read his book Captive Mind and he sure wasn't a communist.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
19 Jan 2012 #113
He was but after leaving a while in Poland after 1945 he deflected to the USA. Their top univ have been that kind of a neo-Marxist self-admiring circles that he was looking for.
Harry
19 Jan 2012 #114
first rule of being an expat in Poland, don't bash the church.

Taking a swing at RM listeners is most certainly not bashing the church. Few of those people even qualify as Christians; they certainly give no sign that they have read and in any way understood the teaching of Jesus Christ.

This is absolutely meaningless.

Made perfect sense to me when I read it before falling into my bed, but then I had had about 15 pints and half a bottle of Becherovka.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
19 Jan 2012 #115
What's truly frightening to me is the way that the RM listeners and the hooligans have formed some sort of partnership - I know a lot of liberal Catholics are *very* upset with this, as it gives even more power to Ruch Palikota.
a.k.
19 Jan 2012 #116
I'm not sure I see where Doda was exhorting hatred based on religion. If I take her words at face value, they are her justification of the opinion she holds.

there was another passage which I didn't translate (but I clearly mentioned it in that post of mine) because it's more less the same and is about insulting people based on their race, ethnicity, nationality and religion. I'm sorry I translated the one about hate, you're right, it doesn't apply here. The court obviously took her words as an insult.

If someone wants to prove her wrong then so be it, but to fine people or convict them as criminals for stating something erroneous means there ought to be A LOT OF POLITICIANS AND JOURNALISTS AND CLERGY MEMBERS who are facing fines or are locked up.

Yes of course. That case is also quite political because it was some senator who "snitched" on Doda, wasn't it?

No, I don't even listen to Radio Maria, I leave that job to them.

Milky don't fight hate with the hate. It's vicious circle.

Guys you all say that Poland is not secular country because of such cases. What about mentioned on the beginning by me the case of Nergal who distroyed Bible - he was found not guilty.
Barney 15 | 1,477
19 Jan 2012 #117
The Founding Fathers had it right. 1st Amendment, Freedom of Speech. That's a democracy.

Did the founding fathers not outlaw murdering your own citizens that too would make you a democracy yet it happens.
Freedom of speech is not the freedom to say "Yer Ma's yer Da an yer Da's yer Ma" (The worst insult when I was a kid). There is more to a democracy than rigid rules. (OK Amendments are how you bend the rules)

I do understand that you are saying that no limits should be placed upon expression, that false outrage fills column inches and that is an inconvenience, the downside of free speech.

There are limits to free speech in every country even The US for eg you cannot call for the murder of someone especially a rich man, you cannot "glorify terrorism" whatever the hell that is; Other democracies have the right to form themselves how they want they dont have to use the US model which was designed to prevent change.

So you have a pinhead drumming up publicity this is how you do it in a democracy when you have no talent.
a.k.
19 Jan 2012 #118
there was another passage which I didn't translate.

I'm wrong here. She wasn't convicted on this article but a different one about insulting religious feelings which says:*
who offends religious feelings of other people by a public insult (znieważać?) of an object of religious worship or a place meant for public religious rituals is subjected to the punishment of (...)

*sorry for my lame translation again

After reading the explaination of the verdict I must agree that it's far-fetched imho.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
19 Jan 2012 #119
The court obviously took her words as an insult.

I would like to hear the rationale for it being taken as an insult; she either stated something factually correct or not regarding the biblical authors' use of substances. Nothing at all was mentioned of their collective character. I am not sure how her defense managed to lose the case unless the verdict was in before the trial began and all that was needed for someone to "feel" insulted:/
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
19 Jan 2012 #120
I would like to hear the rationale for it being taken as an insul

It's the first hearing in a Polish law court - there doesn't need to be a rationale; the documents just need to be presented correctly. Justifying it all and arguing happens later.


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