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US to deploy Patriot missiles to Poland


Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2009 #31
True enough, Wahldo. For what do we have the EU? One of the pillars concerns security. We should be taking care of it, not looking for American intervention.

Besides, where's the imminent threat? Some people say that Iran may have a nuke sometime between 2012 and 2015.
Wahldo
1 Mar 2009 #32
We should be taking care of it, not looking for American intervention.

Yes sir.

Besides, where's the imminent threat?

This is a good question.. Does Polish intell support Russia wants to invade? They do want Ukraine back.. but that's probably it.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2009 #33
What is the take of the US media, Wahldo? I thought it was a done deal. Signed, sealed and, um, to be delivered ;)

Is Obama swithering between different options?

The shield could be set up by 2011 if assembly got underway in the near future. Nah, Polish intel wouldn't say that I think. However, I'm not in a position to say definitively either way.

Ukraine will be more pivotal than most people think.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Mar 2009 #34
Ukraine will be more pivotal than most people think.

Actually Ukraine will be the reason for the next regional war ( or lack of thereoff ) depending on what they decide in the Black Sea issue.
Randal 1 | 577
1 Mar 2009 #35
It seems to me, Sokrates, that you let your personal feelings about the U.S. influence your understanding of issues.
Like it or not, the U.S. indeed has been and remains a major influence around the globe. I don’t think there is any serious disputing of this.

You help Europeans out - They hate you.
You don't help Europeans out -They hate you.

It's cheaper to do nothing.

Yeah, for all our efforts, not a lot of appreciation gets expressed.
They love our help but hate us at the same time. Not unlike how American blacks feel about whites. Ingrates…
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897
1 Mar 2009 #36
You help Europeans out - They hate you.
You don't help Europeans out -They hate you.

That's just not true!
There are people in Europe who hate the US as a full time job and nothing what
the Americans will ever do will change their opinion. But you can forget about them!
Then there are those who just have different opinions and like/dislike Washingtons policies.
And last but not least there is the broad mass who don't give a sh*it at all!

It's cheaper to do nothing.

But that is certainly true...without the US meddling in WWI for example, there wouldn't had been WWII...it was not the most smartest thing to do!
Wahldo
1 Mar 2009 #37
Ukraine will be more pivotal than most people think.

Awww hell, half of them think they're Russian anyway.

Is Obama swithering between different options?

He probably is although he hasn't vocalized that. He was given a clear mandate by the voter to get out these stupid ass global quagmires and to get the economy rolling again. No one mentioned anything about antagonizing the Russians. Obama is doing what he was elected to do.

Are the Poles allies? Yes, they are. They gave us 2500 troops and then left us just like GB did. So... what are we to make of that? Are you commited or are you not? Can we rely on you? Yes , you stayed in Afganistan.. thanks for that. You're gaining real battle experience and probably being paid handsomely by the US.

The Patriots are battle tested and they're probably free (for Poland). Poland will not be attacked by Russia , the US won't allow it - That I'm about 85 - 90% sure on. Also Germans wouldn't like it either and that would might jeopardize Nord Stream.

Also, all summer long Poles acted like they didn't want the shield to begin with. You see what we have? Damned if you do; damned if you don't. That is the way it always is with Europeans. We get to pay the bills and you guys sit around and call us fat and stupid all day long. ;- (
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Mar 2009 #38
It seems to me, Sokrates, that you let your personal feelings about the U.S. influence your understanding of issues.

My personal feelings? Since we're getting personal i believe that U.S is perhaps the greatest country in living history, not the smartest, not the noblest, it has its share of ups and downs but still i believe it to be in many ways a window to what a better mankind could be.

indeed has been and remains a major influence around the globe. I don’t think there is any serious disputing of this.

Where did i dispute it? I've simply stated that if you want to retain influence in Europe you will have to turn to Poland since its the fourth most important country in Europe in regards to geopolitics, without the voice of U.K AND Poland Germany and France will effectively keep you out of the picture in the region.

Yeah, for all our efforts, not a lot of appreciation gets expressed.

Randal lets not be childish, U.S extends aid not because its lovely shiney and humane but because it has significant interests in the country getting strong.

Possibly the only country which you support financially without any rational basis is Israel, all other countries were investmenets that paid back.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2009 #39
Good analysis. I think that the Patriot missiles are more of a symbolic gesture. I scratch your back and you scratch mine is very true in international relations.

However, one thing I will say Wahldo. Europe doesn't ask for all that you give it. Did Poland request those Patriots or did you give them voluntary? You mentioned that they were free which leads me quite clearly in the direction of the answer.

Also, we were led into the War on Terror. You are either with us or against us was said. It's like we scarcely had a choice.

BB, what are you talking about? Be grateful for US intervention. They tipped the balance twice. Do you really think that the Allies would've won the war without them?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Mar 2009 #40
BB, what are you talking about? Be grateful for US intervention. They tipped the balance twice. Do you really think that the Allies would've won the war without them?

WW 2 yes, by the time of Normandy Russia was fucking Germany sideways with a rough stick, also lend lease made things a bit easier but was not critical to Russia.
Wahldo
1 Mar 2009 #41
But that is certainly true...without the US meddling in WWI for example, there wouldn't had been WWII...it was not the most smartest thing to do!

Well that's kind of true to a point but you guys sunk the Lusitania! That wasn't the smartest thing either. Wilson was a pacifist but that forced his hand. In the 20's Calvin Coolidge didnt' want to forgive your repartations, thus a lot of people consider him one of our worst presidents.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2009 #42
Sorry, my fault. That'll get BB started on sidetracking the current discussion. He's quite pro-Russia so I think he'd be happy if the shield wasn't installed.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897
1 Mar 2009 #43
Well that's kind of true to a point but you guys sunk the Lusitania

The Lusitania was smuggling weapons....
And...was it worth it?

BB, what are you talking about? Be grateful for US intervention. They tipped the balance twice. Do you really think that the Allies would've won the war without them?

Why should I be grateful?

The allies won the first war only with the help of the US.
That didn't stop the french and the british to vomit the treaty of versailles what made some painter in Vienna so mad that he decided to go into politics.

You were saying?
Wahldo
1 Mar 2009 #44
Why should I be grateful?

Well, good question. Would you in the nice global position you are in now without the US rebuilding Germany? Plus we buy as lot of your exports. I'm listening to some Sennheisers right now actually.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897
1 Mar 2009 #45
Well, good question. Would you in the nice global position you are in now without the US rebuilding Germany?

Well...without the US meddling in WWI there wouldn't had been any rebuilding necessary...

We will never know what would had happened...

He's quite pro-Russia

I'm pro peaceful Europe...I will bitch about every troublemaker! Be he/she polish, german or russian!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Mar 2009 #46
The Lusitania was smuggling weapons....
And...was it worth it?

For you or Lusitania?

The allies won the first war only with the help of the US.

Not really, the Spring Offensive didnt have enough punch U.S or not and given the amount of social unrest in Europe the war would stop in the few months due to massive communist uprisings in both Germany and France.

That didn't stop the french and the british to vomit the treaty of versailles what made some painter in Vienna so mad that he decided to go into politics.

Any major lost war would have Germany enter a genocidal war of retribution, thats the inflexible mindset which is the legacy of your beloved Bismarck.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897
1 Mar 2009 #47
Any major lost war would have Germany enter a genocidal war of retribution, thats the inflexible mindset which is the legacy of your beloved Bismarck.

So we better win!

Bismarck was a cool man for his time...with him Germany would had sidestepped and overthrown the french and british rivals without shedding any blood (kind of vintage EU)...
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Mar 2009 #48
And make mortal enemies out of them, in time they would retaliate and make sure Germany would never rise to power again, Bismarck was an impressive man with great understanding of what makes diplomacy tick but ignoring human nature, you cant build a lasting political entity with a gun, people will eventually break out and destroy it, and you.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897
1 Mar 2009 #49
And make mortal enemies out of them,

He was good at alliances! What are you talking about!
He secured the newborn country, as long as he was at the helm it was safe and on it's way to become a leading nation of the continent.

All was going downhill the moment the Kaiser thought he knew better and chased
him away...

Leave my Bismarck alone!
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
1 Mar 2009 #50
erm ! Patriot missiles.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
1 Mar 2009 #51
He secured the newborn country, as long as he was at the helm it was safe and on it's way to become a leading nation of the continent.

Through war which was always his perceived conclusion to any major political offensive, there was no alternative scenario nor any plan of how to direct a nation should Germany lose the imminent war which in turn gave birth to a deeply angered and frustrated Nazi Germany and yet another defeat.

All was going downhill the moment the Kaiser thought he knew better and chased
him away...

Not really, all was going downhill the moment Bismarck came to power with his "Blood and Iron" military solutions backed by politics provide short term gains and long term losses.

Without Bismarck you could have became a European superpower through the might of your economy, political pressure and extreme dynamic of your nation, today all of Europe would willlingly and peacefully follow your lead, as it is the opportunity is permanently lost and instead you're only one of contemporary leaders of Europe and in decline at that.

BUT! You have some patriot missiles (saw Wrocławs post)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 10,897
1 Mar 2009 #52
Without Bismarck you could have became a European superpower through the might of your economy, political pressure and extreme dynamic of your nation,

Without Bismarck there wouldn't even be a german nation as we know it!
Stop flaming the man, man!

you're only one of contemporary leaders of Europe and in decline at that.

Aren't we all?
I mean rising - declining - rising - declining - rising - declining...ad nauseam.
Europe's history! All has beens...
In the future there can't be only one Europe if we want to stay competetive!

*missiles*
(See Mods? I mentioned it)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2009 #53
youtube.com/watch?v=sUQOSC3t7k8&NR=1 - well BB, how about this?

I'm surprised that Poland was chosen before Israel. Poland is not completely out of range but is less at risk. Israel is many times more likely to be targetted than Poland.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
1 Mar 2009 #54
I'm surprised that Poland was chosen before Israel.

Didn't Israel have patriot during the first Gulf War... and they were less than accurate.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2009 #55
Sorry Wrocław, I should've made myself clearer. The video I posted was about a missile shield. Israel, to my knowledge, doesn't have such a thing. Not to have it when it is available technology is plainly absurd.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,384
1 Mar 2009 #56
Not to have it when it is available technology is plainly absurd.

They probably have some aircraft aloft 24/7 ... to deal with any (major) problems.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
1 Mar 2009 #57
Technological expertise is not my forte. I'm pretty sure that they have covered their bases though.
Babinich 1 | 455
3 Mar 2009 #58
Without Bismarck there wouldn't even be a german nation as we know it!
Stop flaming the man, man!

Bismarck felt that the existence of Poland was a threat to the German state.

Bismarck wrote this about the Polish people: "One shoots the wolves if one can." viva wilk!

As far as the missile defense shield is concerned: en.rian.ru/russia/20090302/120375219.html
plk123 8 | 4,149
3 Mar 2009 #59
Care to justify?

these answer it perfectly

USA names Russia as possiable threats.

I was initially for the shield when the discussions got underway. I felt that Europe was waking up to safety concerns after Madrid and other threats from radicals. However, I gradually grew to see through the deceit and political maneuvering. This wasn't really altruistically done in the name of the Polish interest, it was to further America's strategic stronghold in global expansion and also to get an important foothold under, guess what, a pretext.

...

its a gesture, a signal if you will.

don't read things into it that aren't there.
Randal 1 | 577
3 Mar 2009 #60
Well, it's in the news today that indeed Obama is going to scrap the missile shield in order to appease Russia on Iran.
The world is screwed with Commies Obama, Putin and Amadinajahd calling the shots.

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