Why should Poland consider pursuing a strategic alliance with Russia?

I am speaking amongst colleagues - not civilians :)

I would never speak this way to the public - but only in very carefully measured pieces.


Slavs are hopelessly sentimental and melodramatic. It's easy to push their buttons, if you understand the architecture of their brains.


They work.

Nobody likes to do it, and intellectually it's not the most exciting adventure, but it f*cking works.

You select the 3-4 "pain points" which produce results - and then you hammer away at them with Stakhanovite consistency.

Not Brits, not Americans - no one is impervious to such sustained pressure. Poles and Russians most assuredly.

If we believe our cause is right, then we can take these instruments on board.

Understandable :)


Exactly!

*handshake*

Gotta catch some z's. Good night, dobri brate, and keep up the good work!

Propaganda is a powerful tool. It works amazingly, when there is coordination from both sides (look at Britain and the United States).

But it can also work even unilaterally, it's just harder.

People are impressionable creatures, and the time it takes to understand their motivations is usually less than one minute.

Important not to lose yourself in the torrent of bullsh*t however. The abyss can swallow even you - and then you are no longer an independent agent.

You are another Russian in total denial that will have a meltdown when the truth dawns on you.

Propaganda is used by all countries,rebels, parties or whatever.
But Russian propaganda is the most prolific and the worst!
They state stuff that normal people know is a lie!
They are useless at it!And TBH they would be better off without it, because it just shows them up as being the fools they are.

Really?

I think we are the world's best at it, but suffer in comparison to the US because we don't have Hollywood and some other soft power tools.

Yes really, nobody believes your $hit!

Worst because it works or because it does not?

Children, children...

The words 'best' and 'worst' do not collocate with 'propaganda', or I should rather say they create meaningless (or at least ambiguous) collocations.

Propaganda can be either effective or ineffective. It is a tool to achieve useful aims.

For example, we (the real elites) know who Piłsudski was but it is useful to upkeep the legend for internal propaganda purposes, so we upkeep it. We know who Wałęsa was, but it is useful to upkeep the legend for external propaganda purposes. The same can be said about Kościuszko, Sobieski, Poniatowski, and applies even to small fry like Sucharski or Kukliński.

Propaganda affects only general public (i.e. idiots), for elites it is merely a tool. The problem in Poland is that our elites are in science, academia, business and liberal professions in general. Politics is controlled by colonial pseudo-elites controlled either by Brussels or Washington. In other words, we are not a sovereign nation anymore.

Some people think that replacing the current "elites" with Konfederacja/Braun camp would be a good option but that would only switch the outside control centre from the EU/USA to Russia. It is therefore vital for Poland's future to lift independent elites to power, people who would be able to adjust to a given situation and always do what's best for Poland without being externally controlled.

Sounds impossible? At the moment it is, but there is still a huge potential of dignity and patriotism in Poles to achieve it. This dormant potential needs to be awakened though. What best awakens dormant potentials? Disasters. Luckily, at the moment disasters are very likely to come from both East and West. All we have to do is to patiently wait and remember who we are and what we want to achieve. Luckily again, Poles are good at waiting and remembering.

But I went too far away from this thread's topic, namely the usefulness of future partnership with Russia. I apologise. :)

It's cause they set themselves as different then the establishment and try to envision themselves as the only competent force in Poland. (Too much critisizing others for my taste, but it's the norm in Poland... In America too in political fighting)

If Poland has learned anything last 20 years is that America pushes in and out as it pleases internationally depending on political body and whims of it's population. If Poland falls out with the American public it will be coined and used with great pleasure by the likes of #Novi

That alone can be a great argument to atleast have still a embassy in Russia.

EU is not solidified with her outer borders and it's too uncertain how the issue of non-EU migrants abusing the Schengen treaty will affect relations with Germany, rest of EU and western states.

Poland needs a lifeline, Russia can be that lifeline. Just how many rubles will that lifeline cost?

That is a possibility but Russia needs to understand that:

1. It is not a superpower.
2. It has no real sphere of influence.
3. It has no soft power and very limited military power, other than nuclear weapons.

Since Russia could not accept 1, 2 or 3 it will not work out.

In the swamp of misspelling Russia haters, you are an exception. Congratulations.

Let me add number 4:

4. Russia's reproductive rate is a suicidal 1.4...inching toward 1.0

@Korvinus

1. Russia has vast territory, natural resources and great scientific/technical potential. It also has large deposits of gold and is a large gold and silver producer (which means they will have real money when the usury-based current financial system falls). Even if it's not a global superpower at the moment, it definitely has almost all it takes to be one.

Why did I say 'almost'? Demography.

2. Hmm... spheres of influence are liquid and subject to constant change. Nobody knows it better than we do. Russia has almost all it takes to extend her sphere of influence.

Why did I say 'almost'? Demography.

3. Bobko mentioned earlier in this thread the ways to increase Russia's soft power, and joined military potential of Slavia is still respectable. Russia has almost all it takes to again be a military superpower.

Why did I say 'almost'? Demography.

@Gruni

You mentioned lifeline. Russia has already played this role for us. I recently visited the Museum of Warsaw Uprising with my family. When you realise what Germans did to our capital, that in this single event they slaughtered ten times as many civilians as were murdered in Katyń (when they already knew they lost the war!), and that until today in Germany there isn't even a proper memorial of Polish victims of the war, it makes you look differently at certain things.

@Novichok

You beat me to it. Demography is the key to the future.

It is not, and will never be, a superpower or equal to the USA. And they need to accept it. Without it Russia will not be able to accept Poland, Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, etc as equal partners.

The problem is Russia behaves like its 1812 and not current year. It is, effectively, a secondary power at best (vassal as Russian would put it).

It also expects to be treated in a special way. Why? No one knows, divine providence perhaps.

30 years ago Ukraine was part of Soviet Union, 20 years ago it was an ally of Russia, now Russia is waging a very costly and bloody war to slice off a piece to annex. Going by that we can expect in 20 years that a New Petersburg Republic will be defending from Muscovite Khaganate aggression...

The overwhelming majority of russian 'citizens' are completely okay with being forced to live in poverty while a handful of psychotic thieves destroys the country.

russia will not become the superpower it's capable of being until they junk their retarded socio-economic system.

Like Australia, Brazil, Canada and such? About as relevant, yes.

Not on her own. But with the help of the rest of Slavia, who knows?

Why should we help them? We still owe them. We were cattle to be partially slaughtered, partially enslaved; subject to actual and cultural genocide. They saved us from it. To deny it because they made us their satellite later is pure idiocy.


Russia treating Estonia and Lithuania as equal partners sounds equally ridiculous as the USA treating Guatemala and Bulgaria as equal partners.

Just 'partners' is enough, 'equal' is silly boyscoutism.


The fantasy of fragmenting Russia is exactly that, a fantasy and - all things considered - a dangerous one for Poland.


So let's help them junk it.

And yes, Korvinus, natural resources and habitable space will be very much relevant in the future.

This is no way to make friends with Russians, haha.

Great! (That you visited the museum)

Yeah, the destruction, theft, slave labour, child kidnapping and hunt for elites, closing universities etc. Add to that holocaust, torture, degradation, mistrust of any ethnicity that's not Polish enough cause of events in 1939.

Oh yeah, movie "Our fathers" also reflects the general sentiment too. Poles seen as antisemites.

Trade sure, it's a way to make up for the past. Anything more then that? I would be wary

In 33 minute of the eleventh episode in second series of four tankmen and a dog it's showed the message received to Polish people armed forces:

"Do generałów, oficerów, podoficerów i żołnierzy wojska Polskiego. Towarzysze broni chwalą odniesionych zwycięstw swoim potem i krwią, zdobyliście prawo gromienia berlińskiego ugrupowania nieprzyjaciela i uczestniczenia w szturmie na Berlin"

By whom?

It doesn't work like that.

Poles mostly hated the soviet system (like Czechs, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Balts etc)

russians were okay with it.

I had a friend who'd been in the Peace Corps and one of the first things they told recruits was "if it's not already happening, you're not going to make it happen". That is, you can only help people do things they already want to do and/or are already trying to do, some outsider there for a year or two isn't going to change and make safe drinking water or education or being hooked up to an electrical grid a priority for them.

I'd love to see russians junk their crap tsar and oligarch system but they like it and think Poles should like it too and are prepared to not care if millions of Poles are killed in an effort to make them like it.

@mafketis

You worry too much about ordinary people. As Bobko said - it is possible to convince them with skillful propaganda.


They are not able to do it though (unless they use nuclear weapons which is unlikely). For the first time since 17th century Russia is not able to conquer Poland militarily. We are the strongest we had ever been in the last four centuries (Battle of Vienna was a swan song), Russia is the weakest in the last 400 years. It is therefore a perfect time to make a good deal (making a deal when they are strong and we are weak would be retarded).

Besides, we have to reach an agreement with Russia before Germany does, and they are champing at the bit to do so (only the USA restrains them, but will they do it forever?).

If Germany strikes a deal with Russia before we do, we're f*cked.

Two peas in a pod.

Germany has tried to take over Europe twice already and has since used the EU to bolster their self-interest. It would be naive to assume they've suddenly changed.

Hear, hear.

Nations and their aims don't change that much in 80 years. That's why it is so important for Poland to come to terms with Russia before the Germans do so. If we don't, we may find ourselves in an untenable position (Polish History 101 really).

A good point, but what do you mean by 'come to tems'? Any 'friendly alliance' is deeply asymmetrical and out of the question.

Is it not better to use democracy within the EU to blunt Germany and France's hegemony and use the EU as a bulwark against r*SSia?

Would alliance with Russia be more asymmetrical than alliance with the USA? I don't think so.

For America we are behind at least 8 countries in importance (UK, Australia, Taiwan, Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Turkey). For Russia we would be in Top 3 most important allies.


I lost any hope that the EU will ever change its suicidal policies (a subject for another thread). Besides, it is too weak.

Governments are collective projections of 'ordinary people'... cases of mismatch don't last long (see the PRL) while the russian kleptocratic thugocracy has stayed the same for hundreds of years, chaning labels but not structure.

I don't believe the fairytale about bad governments repressing good people for hundreds of years....

It wouldn't, however any relation with the USA is less likely to be violently exploitative.


Is that a bad thing? Poland isn't Japan, Britain or Canada. It's a country of 38 million and falling, riddled with r*SSian assets in its public sector and with high levels of corruption. EU and NATO membership have so far served Poland fairly well.


Top three most exploitable Trojan Horses.


With a few notable exceptions (usually due to electoral structures or economic hegemonies) countries tend to get the governments they deserve.

Right! I forgot about Japan and South Korea, so we are not even in Top 10!


That's why it is vital to detach ourselves from any international organisations promoting tolerance for sexual deviations, abortion, euthanasia or any similar elements of the rotten civilization of death, and conduct a thorough state-aided revival of morality and fertility in accordance with Catholic Social Teaching.


Erm... 5% of GDP for defence? Those damn Russians! How dare they demand something like that! :)

You are arguing very well for the necessity of Polish-Russian alliance, Jon. Thank you for your support.