Don't let Poland become like my country, France.

And if you actually read the article you'll find it was used far earlier than that.

There is no need to explain statements of fact such as 'cats exist'.


I have. If you don't want to accept it, then it's up to you. I'm not going to explain it again.


It isn't 'the correct usage'. It's the usage you wish it to be to make your strawman argument the correct one. You personally don't get to define millennia long traditions, and terms that have been in use for a couple of hundreds of years. Words don't mean whatever will win your pointless internet arguments for you.


Concited and arrogant. Of course, I understand the words I type. You (seemingly) either don't or won't understand the obvious, and if you missed out on an education I'm not going to provide you with one.


Irrelevant. I've already told you what the tradition is, so please stop asking me.


I'll humour you just this once. For example, the United Kingdom. The monarch is 'the defender of the faith'. The state church is the Church of England. Prayers are said in the Houses of Parliament. Church of England bishops sit in the House of Lords. Therefore, the UK has a Christian, specifically Anglican foundation, and Christianity and Anglicanism are reformed Jewish faiths.

Now, I am not going to go through every Western country to help you in your battle to understand the obvious, I'll just give you this one example.


Racist nonsense. You seem to have forgotten that you are an immigrant yourself and not of Anglo-Saxon descent. As a WASP I don't accept you as part of my ethnic group. So there.

Claiming that there is a Judeo-Christian "tradition" is very misleading. The tenets of Judaism and Christianity are incompatible. Judaism rejects the central tenet of Christianity. The Christian belief, that God became manifest as a man on earth, is heresy for Jews. Judaism insists on an absolutely pneumatic God. This Jewish rejection of the divinity of Christ is heresy for Christians, and Christianity for the vast majority of its existence has considered the Jews guilty of the crime of Deicide. What kind of "tradition" is that? It isn't one by any stretch of the imagination.

Claiming that the "Judeo-Christian tradition" is a "fact" is as absurd as claiming that there is something called the "Hindu-Buddhist tradition" which is a "fact". Newer religions that radically break with the traditional beliefs of older religions cannot rightly be claimed to be continuations of these traditions. Claiming that the pneumatic God was made flesh, or denying the authority of the Vedas, are such radical breaks.

Christianity could never have existed without Judaism. Christ himself was a Jew.

Christianity is 'Judaic' in the same sense that Mormonism is 'Christian'.

Christ is a name from the Greek language. There may well have been a real person named Jesus who considered himself a Jew, but the Christ of Christianity is God made flesh, and that is anathema to Judaism. If Jesus believed what Christians believe about him then he was not a Jew.


Mormonism accepts almost all of the tenets of Christianity (save for the Virgin Birth) and just adds another narrative about Christ visiting the New World. Judaism rejects Christianity's central tenet. Christianity is not Judaic in the same sense as Mormonism is Christian.

How surprising to find you of all people telling lies about a Jew. Jesus was a Jew; deal with that fact.

This is what Des said......


Harry He is noting that the historical character (if he existed) was a Jew at some point in his life.

Christianity rejects the teachings of Joseph Smith in the same manner as Judaism rejects those of Jesus.

Trotskyism and Stalinism may have been at loggerheads with each other, but they both come under the generic term of 'Communism'.

Well, I was taught at school that the European civilisation in general (not only Western, mind you :)) had basically three main foundations: Judeo-Christian, ancient Roman and ancient Greek. That's the history of our continent, I'm not sure why is that a problem?


I have a feeling Jews wouldn't agree with your statement xD


Messiah comes from Hebrew though ;)

I don't think the theological differences matter as far as this term "Judeo-Christian tradition" is concerned. It's about culture, I think.

And if you read the article again you will see that it was actually the term "Jewish-Christian" which was used earlier... :)

Quote:
"Judeo-Christian is a term used since the 1950s to stress the common ethical standards of Christianity and Judaism..."

Btw, I can even give a simple and easily recognisable example, if anyone is interested:



"David" by Michelangelo is one of the symbols of Renaissance (and of European culture, I guess). It's a classical sculpture (Ancient Greece/Ancient Rome) but depicts a Jewish king from a Jewish holy book. And, of course, it was made for Christians ;)

A nice example but in every sense Christian rather than anything we can call Judeo-Christian (very much a Christian rather than a Jewish concept, by the way) - a representation of David would be anathema to religious Jews.

Worth mentioning in the context of this thread that David is an important figure for Muslims also. Like Judaism, their religion also does not tolerate statues.

To me, this sculpture really symbolizes the relationship between christianity and judaism: A christian sculptor took a character from the hebrew bible and depicted him in a way that would horrify the ancient hebrews. (The idea of showing a full body statue of a king is anathema to jews, and a naked one yet!). The depiction is greco-roman if anything. In a similar way, the church fathers took Jewish concepts and stories and then merged them with greco-roman and pagan ideas and turned them into something that jews couldn't recognize as anything like the original.

It doesn't matter, jon357. We're not talking about term "Judeo", but "Judeo-Christian".
I've given "David" as an example to show what the European culture was influenced by. It wasn't only influenced by the New Testament, but also by the Old Testament.

I guess one could argue that since Christianity and Christian culture is a kind of hybrid of Judaism and pagan Roman/Greek influences, the addition of the "Judeo-" part is redundant because everybody knows what are the roots of Christanity and Christian culture.

I don't know. I didn't coin this term and I don't really care ;)


xD


Of course it is. That was my point ;)

Good point!

If it exists at all as a valid concept. And if it does, we can't ignore Islam which is part of the same religious heritage.

Well, it existed at my school, I guess, that's all I can say :)


Not of European heritage, though.

That must make all the difference.


Neither is Judaism, except by immigration or Christianity, except by proselytising. All thre come from the Middle East. And don't forget the Bosnians, Kosovars and Albanians.

What is indigenous European?
Islam was in Iberia longer than Christianity, today there are still European Muslims in the Balkans and other places.

This modern ill defined phrase is like "stuff" it can mean anything, calling it a tradition is not kosher.

Paulina a lot of people use that phrase without understanding usually without malice, but you can be sure when pressed most will struggle to accurately define it. Those who use it with deliberate intent tend to use it as code for White European.

What do you mean?
I wrote "that's all I can say".
Meaning - I only know that it was used at my school.
Do you understand?


Um... Jon357, I'm talking about the main, general foundations of European culture and European civilisation in general, common for all European countries.
I am not aware of Islam being one of them. The Quran didn't have any influence on general European culture. Islam is even younger than the Christianity, so I don't see how would that be even possible. I'm talking about historical foundations, not present day influences or whatever or even local historical influences in some countries. The main reason why this term "Judeo-Christian" is used, I imagine, is because Christianity has it's roots in Judaism. Not in Islam. Islam has it's roots in Judaism, just as Christianity.

(Btw, I'm not writing this because I have sth against Islam o_O I don't. It's just history, people...)

No he wasnt

According to the Pew Research Center, Europe's population was 6% Muslim in 2010, and is projected to be 8% Muslim by 2030.

Barney, it had some influence in those places, I'm sure, just like, let's say, Slavic culture had and still has some influence in Poland or Celtic in, I don't know, Scotland or Ireland, but it didn't affect the European culture as a whole, it wasn't a common element. It was a local influence.


Then don't use it, if you don't like it ;)


I think there's nothing wrong with this term when it's used in the context I've mentioned. Those were the foundations of European civilisation. Of course, Europe is changing and it will continue to change, I guess. Some new influences are being added and will be added. But the core historical foundations were those I mentioned, I think. And there's nothing wrong with that. Every continent had it's history and influences :)


Well, if you say so :)

Which we've established can't be objectively described as 'Judeo-Christian'.


That process is certainly starting.


Thgis much is true


Less so than Islam, since Christian practice (and theology) has far more outside influence.

Where have "we" established that?


In what way?


Less or more, it doesn't matter, jon357, the fact is - Christianity has it's roots in Judaism and that's what I've stated...

(seems to me you want to argue :))

Have a look at the thread


Ditto


Christianity as we know it has far more Theological influences from outside Judaism, even more than its Hellenistic founder St Paul would recognise despite his surviving attempts to reconcile it to earlier Jewish hermaneutics.

I'm not sure what you mean and where I'm supposed to look. I haven't established with you what you claim we've established ;)

Could you be so kind and perhaps quote or provide a link to a post you have in mind? :)


?


I wouldn't agree with that. But as I already wrote it doesn't matter - Christianity comes from Judaism. Not from Hinduism, Shinto or even from the religion of Ancient Rome. Christianity has it's roots in Judaism.

I don't even why we're still discussing it...?

Read the thread carefully - if you still don't understand, why bother posting?


No. Theologically it comes more from other sources - read up on the logos.

I posted to comment about the "Judeo-Christian" term.
You wrote "Which we've established can't be objectively described as 'Judeo-Christian'."
What did you mean by that?
That the "Judeo-" part should be dropped and the term should be "Christian" only?


Jon357, what do you mean? Christians believe that the Jewish Messiah has come (as prophesied in the Old Testament) and they pray to the God of Abraham lol

Not to any god, but to that particular God. They consider the Old Testament their holy book too. So I'm not sure what you're talking about (logos or no logos).

Read the thread (and some people's posts in Random) rather than trying to argue about something that's been discussed exhaustively already today. You keep on doing this, and ought to have figured out by now that it doesn't work. You came too late into the discussion to go over the basics.


You do know that most of the biblical exegesis you've heard is far later than the world in which Christianity changed from being a small sect to a large religion? Or the discontinuity between the Jerusalemites (gone without a trace) and the Hellenistic Christians? All fairly standard stuff.


You can't talk about Christianity without that - it's central to the Theology - read St John's gospel (the first chapter will do if you can't manage all of it)

Anyway, Paulina, if you can find someone who's still prepared to talk to you and doesn't mind playing games, good luck - I'm off to bed since it's a different time zone here by Abraham/Ibrahim's birthplace.

Isn't it about time humanity invented a new religion based on the already established ones, like they did with the others? Ohh no they cant pull those tricks anymore. Religion is such BS.