Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 23

It's what formally being said and thought. Russians

In reality it's Homo Sovietucuses and children of the Soviet Union. Brainwashed through generations, just as there are children of PRL and basically PRLites who support socialism and socialistic tendencies as long as it doesn't sound like something a communist would have called it. Ever heard of PiS? Without PRL brainwashing PiS would never have a strong majority.

Your nitpicking choice and flavour and sound of my words like a German! Why do I say like a German? Cause in German law tradition it was enough to fail by pronouncing something incorrectly as it was seen as proof of not having the backing of their ancestors, spirits or the traditions. BB can potentially explain this better then me.

My point is, the leadership in Russia is waging a war no matter who starts it or who ends it. They are going to wage it until Russia disappears, Putin disappears or have a bombardment of dreams about having to sign a peace treaty and most Orthodox clergymen have similar dreams. Then they would be truly terrified by God.

Until then, Putin doesn't want to end the war cause it would end his regime. Any talk about Ukraine surrendering is out of the question cause it is simply too dangerous for the world.

People wanting Russia to win, simply wants the world to burn.

I want Russia to win now just as my parents wanted the USSR to win in 1945.

The US got very close to setting the world on fire in 1961 only because two sovereign countries decided to bring things the US didn't like to Cuba.

Russia doesn't like NATO in Ukraine. Period.

Yes, I know, anything older than 4 years doesn't count...The world history started in Feb 2022...

Dealing with forgetful idiots is so exasperating ... I feel sorry for Bobko and Velund...

Then you also want U.S.A to lose, for Israel to disappear. Soviet Union return, USD becoming worthless and not used internationally, Ukraine to stop existing, U.S.A being isolationist and states in the pacific being more bold, aggressive and imperialistic. You really believe that won't happen with a Russian victory? Are you mad?

I don't understand how a Russian victory will lead to the erasure of Israel, or a collapse of the USD-based world system of trade.

A strong Russia is good for America.

1) If Russia becomes more productive, trades more, and innovates more, it will add net value to the global economy. This doesn't take from the U.S., instead it enriches both. Economic growth is not fixed, but expansive.

In this way, a strong postwar Germany and a strong postwar Japan benefited the United States through trade and investment, and not at its expense.

2) A stable and self-assured Russia can contribute to regional and global security. Especially in Central Asia and the Caucasus - freeing America from this burden and expense. A Russia that doesn't feel threatened, may actually cooperate with the West (again) on issues like North Korea and Iran.

3) Russian natural resources and scientific talent, if integrated responsibly, can only make America stronger. Right now, a large portion of the uranium used to power American nuclear reactors is still Russian, and until recently the only way Americans could send astronauts to the ISS was on Russian rockets. When we work together, it can be of tremendous mutual benefit.

4) Big global challenges - like climate, pandemics, nuclear proliferation, and AI safety - even America can't manage alone. It would benefit from the cooperation of other large states.

The world is not a zero sum game. What's good for Russia is not automatically bad for America, and vice versa.

Headlines read:
Putin becomes a laughing stock as new numbers show staggering Russian losses in Ukraine
I don't see what is so funny about Russia surpassing the milestone of over a million men's lives lost.
Bill Gates and the boys are much more humane in how to decrease the population.

Absolutely, not!

If Russia took over Europe, NATO would be dead and the US Article 5 obligations would end.

NATO is a suicide pact for the US. Zero value to us but a very real possibility that some NATO shlthole can now drag us into a shooting war with Russia - the country that at great sacrifice won WW2 and saved countless American lives.

No, I never gave a fvck that the USSR took control over Eastern Europe and saved Poland from the Western "liberators"... the scum that killed millions for "freedom and democracy" in Korea and Vietnam.

If the Soviets stopped at Poland's Eastern border, I would still be rotting in Poland, pursuing the Polish dream of paying American prices on a Polish salary.

So, one more time, I want to thank the Red Army for liberating Poland and giving me the reason to leave it in 1967. I love you, guys...

Then continue living in your fairy land dream Peter Pan! Putin has been out publicly complaining about U.S.A hegemony and is after you with or without NATO.

But you can believe and trust Putin in your neverland!

That is not achieved with a victory in Ukraine for Russia. That will only continue to keep the current system that is currently in place in Russia and spread elsewhere, leading to more corruption and destabilising states elsewhere and not only in Africa and the Middle East but South America and Asia!

For Russia to get strong and a asset for the globe it will need decades of peace, stability, investments and safer transfer of power. As of now the Russian Federation has gone to expensive adventures abroad!

I couldn't agree with you more. It's what I have been writing here for a long time.

But before we can start putting the country back together, we need to conclude the story with Ukraine.

Without Ukraine, Russia is merely a regional power. With Ukraine, we have the ingredients necessary for success on the big stage.

Ukraine is our Kosovo, our Malopolska - to use a Serbian or Polish analogy.

It's the heart of Russia, without which the rest of the body can't function.

you have no story any longer with Ukraine except as killer of civilians.... not a legacy, russia is a burden on Ukraine


you had that and you threw it away


russia will _always_ feel threatened because that is the normal externalized psychological profile of russians... a russia that doesn't feel threatened is no longer russia but something else

Your favorite guy - Kamil Galeev - he always writes that it's rich and rapidly growing countries that cause trouble. Poor, backwards, and authoritarian usually equals very passive and reflexive instead.

Russia always acts out, just when it has its best run.

Pre-WW1 we had perhaps the fastest growing economy in the world, and a level of freedom that Russians had not known in centuries. Result - frivolous war of choice, two revolutions in the same year, and 70 years of Communism.

Russia in the early 2000s - same story. Only China was growing faster. GDP went from around $250B to $2.5 trillion, very quickly. Russians could suddenly travel wherever they wanted, and buy whatever consumer goods they wanted. Result? Georgia, Syria, Ukraine, West Africa.

Money, freedom, and travel are not good for Russians. Goes to our heads very quickly.

Of course, there is a lesson here for other people too, but I don't care to expound on that right now.

Pre WW1 the fastest growing economies in the world were all democracies - the US, Australia, Canada, even Argentina

North Nigeria was then as it is now - decades behind, a feudal dictatorship where people wore shoes made of tree bark

As for the early 2000s well I can't even be bothered to look it up, but GDP is only 2.3 trillion today, 25 years later and in terms of economic growth it has been left in the dust by Poland, Czech, Romania, Croatia and all the Baltics

It was decades behind in income per capita, but its growth rates around 1914 were the highest in the world.

Obviously it was behind lol. The Industrial Revolution barely touched us, until the mid 19th century. We abolished serfdom only in 1861. Thoughtful land reform took even longer.

I mean only relative growth rates. Also, amount of capital attracted from abroad. I think it may have been second only to the United States in the amount of capital it absorbed, out of Britain, France, and Germany.

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Bottom line, you are correct about absolutes. Russia benefited from a very low starting base, in comparison to Britain and France. High growth was much easier for us to achieve.

poor people who win the lottery are usually broke or in debt after a couple of years....

middle class people who win the lottery do a lot better...

russia is a poor country subjectively, everything is built around poverty being an unchanging norm (the bombastic entrances of little vova through giant doors or the extraordinarily vulgar and nasty excesses of the small class of rich russians is part of that... poor people's idea of wealth).

the middle class is where the action is (in terms of making countries really rich) and russians despise the middle class AFAICT

I don't know what can be subjective about it. Russia is objectively poor.

Russia needs to be 2.5-4X richer than it is now.

Russia is a very, very, poor country. We are spiritually rich. Rich in land. Rich in history and in culture. But materially we are as poor as some Malaysia or Brazil. Well, maybe not nearly, but close.


Russians, like French people, hate the Middle Class.

The middle class is disgusting, in all its aspects.

The Russian Empire had a weak and relatively small middle class. Nobles and peasants dominated the social structure. Bourgeois values, like: pragmatism, thrift, incrementalism - these were often seen as cowardly or traitorous in a culture obsessed with grandeur, sacrifice, and extremes.

In the USSR, we set out to eliminate the bourgeoisie as a class enemy. "Middle-classness" was synonymous with petty-bourgeois philistinism... timid, selfish, un-revolutionary.

Some kind of amoeba like life form. Seemingly carrying some characteristics of life, but at the same time devoid of any sense of agency or soul.

In French political life the same thing repeats. They oscillate between romanticism of the proletariat or veneration of aristocratic style. The bourgeois, however, are a symbol of moral cowardice and intellectual mediocrity in both left-wing and right-wing thought.

The middle class is neither fish nor meat. Not hot and not cold. Totally unrussian in their sentiments.

Been down a bit of a rabbit hole on Wikipedia and concluded I need to learn more about industrialization under Tsarism - what is a good book ?

From what I can read many of the most advanced factories were in Poland - not just Lodz but also Sosnowiec, Pabanice, Lublin

What would Putin do if he got me?

To be completely honest, I've struggled with this myself. In regards to English language literature, that is.

In Russian, there is a mountain written about it, but it's mostly during the Soviet period. So it has a particular bent to it, where it always tries to prove that we did better than the Tsar - even if we need to compare industrial statistics of 1945 with 1914. Soviet literature is not so good here.

So... in no particular order:

1) "The Development of Capitalism in Russia" - Vladimir Lenin

2) Marx and Engels' letters on the question of Russian industrialization, and their forward to the Russian edition of the Communist Manifesto.

3) "The Tsarist Economy" - Gatrell

4) "Russia in the Age of Modernisation and Revolution 1881-1917" - Rogger

I think if you read any of these, it's a good introduction. But anything further, you will have to work with much more obscure and unsystematized studies.

Thanks ! The Gatrell book is free to download so I will try that

You may not respect middle-class values just like you may not respect the law of gravity, but they have been tested and they work in the real life. Ignore them at your own peril. In the long run, small Dutch shopkeepers win - thrift, self-discipline and diligence win.


Bingo. That's why we need to show our middle fingers to both leftards and rightards. Centrism is the way to go.


F*ck hot and screw cold. You can choke on your boiling hot coffee or freezing-cold iced matcha, I'll have my lukewarm tea any day instead, not too strong either... with milk.

Humanity will either go centrist or it will end. The problem is, Europe is ruled by Germany and they go from one extreme to another. From far-right to liberal-left and back again, from stern protestantism through marxist materialism to neo-pagan cults and back again, they are a nation with collective bipolar disorder (sorry, BB, but you know it's true). On the other hand we have Russia, who seem to think that 19th century imperialism should be revived, that her borders don't end anywhere, and that wherever the Russian soldier puts his feet blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda. Bloody madmen both West and East.

Wall. We need to build a wall.


He would turn around, pull down his trousers, bend over and let you do what you always do best - shine his arse with your tongue.

The Gatrell book is the weakest of the ones I listed. Written in the 1980s or 1970s, it suffered from not much access to Soviet archives.

But it probably comports with your prejudices regarding Russia. Gatrell's point, largely, was to prove that Russia was not a "second America". That it had its own unique path, covered with much more trouble.

...like the first in space, AK-47, and the fastest fighter planes. Not bad fro a bunch of Mogols...

Name rich countries without a large and dominant middle class....

Maybe the aging of the world will help you achieve this...

But this is no way to reach the young people!

Prudence, patience, industry - this is not what young people want to hear.

Many young people, and I was one such person, want to do nothing else but to go and serve. But you will have a hard time recruiting soldiers for a bourgeois republic.

There is a period in most men's lives - I firmly believe this - between approximately 16 and 30 - where the inner arsonist awakens, and all that you want to see, is the world burning.

Now, if we continue having less kids than 2.1 per woman, then sooner or later the proportion of people that have a genetic and hormonal imperative to burn the world to its foundations will reduce.

For the time being, however, it's quite high. And none of your shopkeeper platitudes will stop the people that just want to witness a large conflagration.

But this is what they will learn. The easy way or the hard way. The choice is theirs.


We will buy them. Cold mercenaries make better soldiers than hot-blooded fanatics.


They are not platitudes, they are laws of nature.

...to make room for newer and better...

Way back I said that every city should be bombed flat once every 100 years.

The best example of how it works is Warsaw and right across the river, Praga, where few want to live in.

russian hubris is such that they think they are immune to the laws of nature.... how has that been working out for them recently?

Until expensive cold mercenaries meet with highly motivated cold people, taking weapon to protect their homes and families.

In a foreign country called Ukraine.

And what colombian and polish mercenaries doing there?