Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 23

No, they are still Ukrainian. Americans get merely priority access - before anyone else - and can earn 50% of the profits from every new mine, even if it wasn't them that developed them.

---

I thought this would be a good piece of news to share with CMS Neuf. He seems to be a bit challenged when it comes to Ukrainian geography. Constantly bringing up Pokrovsk, and how we are "still" 6 kilometers outside of it.

If he opened a map, he would see that Russia has advanced far west of Pokrovsk, and has in fact breached the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast border. This lithium deposit, and the town it is located next to, are to the West of Pokrovsk.

Incidentally, Ukraine's largest coking coal mine was located west of Pokrovsk. This too was captured, but earlier. Again, not discussed by CMS Neuf.

Yes, the prevailing narrative within which he operates would seem to systematically exclude recognition or acknowledgement of any Russian success. This, of course, offends my fundamental notions of fairness as well as my understanding of equitable conduct but such is life and such is PF. :)

To some extent, I admire him. He must be a thoroughly decent person, to expend so much emotional energy in supporting the party line on Ukraine.

With Milo it's hard to escape the feeling that he simply hates Russians. Growing up in England as son of Polish emigrants, is likely to have such an effect on the development of a man's brain.

Maf - I have a hard time understanding, but oftentimes it does seem to border on some kind of racial hatred of Russians.

With CMS Neuf - I feel like he is just thoroughly disappointed and disgusted. That's different. That I can digest, and respect.

It's moral hatred of the corrupt, immoral russian socio-political system. If russians want to be infants who get beat up by their abusive father figure forever then okay.... but keep in your borders and stop invading other countries, motherfvkkers! No one wants your lousy tsar!

Clear? russians who do not support russian imperial expansion are often fine people... but how many of them are there?

Well - that's just strange. Why do you hate it so much?

This is why I said in the past, and still believe, that you have some kind of deep fascination/obsession with Russia.

People that are such professional Russia haters are nearly all Russians. Solzhenitsyn, Sakharov, Akhmatova, Tolstoy etc.

To really hate Russia - you have to know and love Russia.

The average, run-of-the-mill, Cold War-flavored hate of commies and snitches - does not rise up to the level of hate you have exhibited.

No... you hate only as someone who loves very much could hate.

It is hatred all right. I fail, however, to comprehend what's so very moral about it.

This "moral" hatred affects not only your objectivity (in your narrative Russians are almost subhuman who need to be isolated, confined within the borders of Russia) but even your ortography - you keep spelling Russia/Russians with small "r".


It is precisely such expletives that make me wonder about the "moral" part of this "moral hatred" of yours.

It's love, clearly.

It's impossible to hate something so intensely, unless you are intimate with it.

In the end, I couldn't care less about Israel. I can episodically work myself up into some kind of frenzy on the topic of Israel, but ultimately - I feel drained.

With Ukraine, my hatred grows in direct proportion to the amount I think about it.

Like some bipolar grandmother that made your childhood miserable, but at whose grave you wept longer than her own son.

:)

You are confusing our not-Slavic readers, Bobi. Poles know what you mean but others are already scratching their heads.

Anyways... Milo, Maf, CMS, Jon, Paulina (probably)... who else... Pawian, but he's no longer with us (on PF, I mean). All things considered, for a Polish board, the number of genuine Russia haters/lovers is rather unimpressive, isn't it?

You are prejudiced, Torq, or you have a short memory.
--

Always.


Never.

It means hatred based on moral grounds...

Look at Bucha... russian rule always begins and continues with Bucha... I've never heard of russians who had an moral objections to the purges or the holodomor.

My values revolve around human flourishing and human dignity (post russian client state Poland vastly increased both) and the russian system allows for neither.

I despise the craven nature of russians afraid to stand up for themselves and convincing themselves they love their abusive daddy tsar....

Before the russian invasion of Ukraine I never thought much of russia but after the invasion I learned a lot... and none of it is not awful.

I do hope he's alright. He was my introduction to PF, and the first person that was kind to me.


Yes - this is the MOST IMPORTANT thing to learn.

I wish I could broadcast PF directly into the heads of my 150 million Russians. So they could see what other people think about us, and how our actions come across.

I think what most Russians don't understand, is that our country is making other people fearful, and much of the rest is a consequence of this.

In Russia, people instead WANT other people to fear us - and they think that BECAUSE they don't fear us now... is why we have the problems we have now. This is obviously upside down. People fear us and our wild unpredictability - and this is why we have issues finding understanding.

For me, spending years here on this forum, has completely changed how I view certain things. And I think I am pretty well travelled, and pretty educated, and yet - I still needed these conversations with Neufs, Mafs, and Milos to understand certain things.

I really don't think anything bad about these three people, and others that have said bad things about Russia. I'm grateful to them. They're good people, decent, hardworking, etc.

To you I am obviously grateful. If they make me understand why people can hate us, then you are the opposite example which shows that there is always a way to connect.

I am not a historian but even I know that this isn't true.

In the 20th century Poles were one of the few unhappy nations who had the opportunity to live first under nazism and then under communism. Under nazism we were slaughtered systematically and on an industrial scale, Polish population in 1939 was 35 million, in 1945 23 million (negative 12 million balance). In the period of 1945-1989, it rose from the said 23 million to 38 million (positive 15 million balance). This sole fact, even if you knew nothing else about the USSR and People's Republic of Poland, should tell you that it wasn't one long Bucha, right?


You are an interesting phenomenon, Maf. You hate Russia more than Poles do (which is not difficult - we love them), and I would hazard a statement that you are even above Ukrainian average hatred of all things Russian. What enables you to sustain such an intense level of profound hostility?

Do you want a slide show of children killed in the current invasion?

Wasn't I kind to you?
---

You can bribe even Germans.

... and vice versa.

If we only got Kostyas or even Velunds (although the tankist has a heart of gold, it's evident), my overall optimism regarding future Russian-Polish relations would be rather limited. Thanks to your presence here, the dream of Slavia is still alive in my mind and heart. Thank you.


What would that accomplish? Surely you must realise that the number of photos you could include in such a slide show would be significantly lower than the number of photos of dead Iraqi or Palestinian children. Why then don't you hate America and Israel as intensely as you hate Russia? No, it's definitely not the number of dead children.


I know. I've heard of Gerhard Schroeder (and I know there were and are others like him). It was a joke.

Geez...

I have a slide show of 60 million children killed by their American mothers after they got the green light from the black robes in 1973.

Would you like to see it?

It's superhuman - it really is. Quite impressive. I think Maf, at the end of this war, can become a professor and go teach Russian political economy.


I'm a historian, and I also know this is not true.

There's plenty of literature about the different flavors of colonialism. British colonialism can be quite nice - in that it imparts those oh so special British institutions - which can serve as a huge multiplier.

But Russian colonialism always gets a good rap for its humanity. This is grounded in the basic humanity of Russians, who simply could not understand how Brits or French could treat their subjects as brutally or as coldly as they did.

Brits and French are brilliant - but they are not good Christians.

In one book, "Amur-San: A Journey to the Land of the Chinese" (original title: "Amurskiye Zapiski") by Yevgeny Fyodorovich Martynov - you can see how Russians in the international quarter in Shanghai looked at the behavior of the British. This same insufferable arrogance and snobbery is on display today - in this forum.

Here's the excerpt, took me minute to find it for you:

• 
  IMG_7207.jpeg
  

The last part of that passage from Martynov:

"I don't know who could civilize whom; perhaps the Chinese could civilize the English with their politeness, meekness, and their ability to trade as well."

I wish I would have written that myself.

These paragons of nobility and civility - have been calling me every dirty word in the book these past years. Making me understand exactly why I am their inferior, and why I don't deserve any good things.

Did I ever reply to them in kind?

Or did I always show my Eastern Polish, that you Westerners sorely lack?

Painful to read but, I suspect, quite accurate.


No, you didn't.

I wouldn't blame you if you did. You had every right to do it, but you didn't. Your contribution here rendered a distinguished service to your country (albeit to a very small audience). You are a good man.

That's part of it. Also, no one, including russians here, can actually articulate how invading Ukraine was supposed to improve life for anyone, anywhere.... No one with a three digit IQ believes the 'nazi' story (esp given the larger number of neo-nazis in russia).

fill in the blank: russians support the russian invasion of Ukraine because..........

I was absolutely against the Iraq invasion which I knew would fail in... just the way it failed. Nonetheless those in charge actually thought they could change Iraqi society in a few months... stupid and terrible (and I've known Iraqis who lost family members in the aftermath).

Israelis and Palestinians are involved in a long-term war for land and neither side will accept the presence of the other....it's awful but far away.

Ukraine is next door. Very immediate.

Also.... look at russia's allies... a veritable who's who of some of the worst governments on Earth..

china - killed more of its own citizens in the 20th century than any other country... and it's not even close. and the same party is still in power.

north korea - killed off about 20 % (conservative estimate) of its population in the 1990s through starvation and the same _family_ is still in power.

iran - awful theocracy hated by most iranians

How can I articulate it, when Putin himself cannot articulate it?

But even if I were able to, I suspect that would not comfort you.

The Ukrainians are abit like the Bavarians in Germany....they will be Bavarians first and foremost and only after that...eventually....if there is no other way....abit Germans, too...

That only works in a federation with far reaching independence....is that an alternative for Moscow? Well, they should think about it....

All that..."The Ukrainians are in truth real Russians!"...."And we have to bring them heim ins Reich!"...isn't working right and most probably never will....

I remember early fall of 2021 I was going on a trip by night train and stopped at a department store in the station mall (also next to bus station). The long line at the checkout was full of Ukrainians, obviously buying stuff before going back home. Clothes, flower pots, kitchen stuff, tchotchkes of various kinds...

I remember random encounters with Ukrainians... like a woman fresh from the bus who asked directions and was clearly delighted that a 'local' understood her Polish and that she could understand the answers.

I wonder how many of them died in a war that not even the instigator can explain....

You have always been kind to me - brother. Thank you, and I hope I never said anything to you that was over the line.

In general - all the Poles of this forum have been kind to me - left or right, liberal or conservative. Kania, Iron, Pawian, Gumi, Grunnie, Paulina, Lena, and even Alien.

Alien confuses me most times, and I don't understand what he wants to say - but he has never been rude.

Only Americans and British have been rude, arrogant, hateful, etc.

You missed my point, Maf.

I don't think you are on the wrong side in Ukrainian-Russian conflict. If you've been reading my posts here, even rather cursorily, then you must realise that I am not a big fan of Putin and his allies either.

What I take issue with is the intensity of animosity you exhibit... almost demonic virulence of the sentiment you express. Now, hear me out - we are all people: Poles, Americans, Brits, Russians, Germans and even (though it pains me to say so) the French - we all have souls, and it is the fate of your immortal soul that worries me. If you continue to hate so profoundly, you risk a lot.


Apart from AntV, right? He's a great guy.

... and Novi is hopelessly in love with you but I'm not sure if I should count him as an American or as a Pole. ;)

I have strong opinions and use strong language to express them.

And there are russians I admire.... Kamil Galeev, Denis Zakharov are two on twitter. Do I agree with them on everything? No, but they're not afraid of speaking the truth.

Why aren't there thousand and thousands of them?

If you say it's because of fear of reprisals you're making my point about how terrible the russian system of socio-political organization is...

He's a REAL AMERICAN.

Not these plastic Poles and plastic Russians that are angry at God knows what.

AntV is a fully formed individual. Muscle, bone, and breath.

He stands on his own feet, and makes his own pronouncements.

A man amongst men.

You forgot BB, PAK, and Poloniusz...There are more but these three stand out...