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Poland has accepted over a million Ukrainian refugees. Why does the EU keep telling propaganda about Poland?


mafketis 21 | 7,463
25 May 2018 #241
I am quite satisfied with level of democracy expressed on Crimean referendum.

you would be....
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
25 May 2018 #242
By the 1980s only Romania was poorer than Poland, people had to queue for basic necessities

So it was terrible but how did the Soviets force the Romanians to do it to themselves? If you tell me that whatever the Romanians produced was immediately stolen by the USSR or their soldiers roaming the streets like gangs, I will accept it. Or was it the Romanian ruling top doing it to those it ruled?

The list is too long for me to be bothered to post here

It will take no more than a paragraph. I am not expecting any documents and links, so go for it.

I am only asking for a list of the Soviet attrocities after 1946. Like I said before, if you insist to include what happened before 1946, please don't forget Dresden, and the two nukes in Japan. And how about 1.2 million Iraqis killed by the US on a "faulty" CIA intelligence. Oops.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
25 May 2018 #243
I am only asking for a list of the Soviet attrocities after 1946.

Ask those imprisoned in Mokotów Prison as to who was running the show. There's your answer.

Interesting that you keep pushing the Russian view on here, including stirring up tension with regards Muslims.
Crow 137 | 7,756
25 May 2018 #244
Poland has accepted over a million Ukrainian refugees.

Poland is big Mother.

Why does the EU keep telling propaganda about Poland?

EU hates Mother.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
25 May 2018 #245
Ask those imprisoned in Mokotów Prison as to who was running the show. There's your answer.

Who? The Soviet army, police, KGB or the Polish guys?

Who was in that prison?

How many?

What were the charges?

Were they executed without a trial?

If so, who executed them, the Soviets or the Poles?

Please don't be shy or refer me to a source that does not exist or is not accessible.

You do realize that the quoted sentence above is an equivalent of f*** off? Polite but exactly the same.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,474
25 May 2018 #246
A larger body count does not excuse a smaller body. By that logic, it's okay if I kill someone's kid as long as i spared him and his wife. It's okay if I burn down a village, as long as i don't shell the city...

To answer your questions, thousands were in Mokotow prison mostly on trumped up charges of treason, which usually was simply belonging to an anti commie organization. Being called an American collaborator or nazi collaborator by a local pzpr member was enough to get you thrown in prison.

Here's a link about the executions in 1951 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_Mokot%C3%B3w_Prison_execution

According to this article, executions numbered around 2700

washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1989/10/31/warsaw-rite-recalls-terrors-of-stalin-era/c4bf331c-be10-4e86-b946-088369d04592/?utm_term=.3868d129b382

The jail was run by UB although every major decision, as with the rest of the prl and other ussr satellites was made by Moscow commies

Earlier you said you left poland heading west because you sought freedom and prosperity and because the commie system wasnt working out for you. Now you're praising the system and apologizing for what the Soviets did to the polish nation?

If you want to return to that system im sure Kim il sung university could use another English teacher.
cms neuf - | 1,022
25 May 2018 #247
Russia is still executing people without trial - just using various goons and spies to do so. You can google Soviet repression in Poland in the 50s - at its peak there were over 50.000 political prisoners and many executions. A Soviet citizen (Rokossovsky, Marshall of the Soviet Army), was directly installed as defence minister and directly responsible for sending in military units to kill civilians in Poznan.

Given that its Monday morning in Chicago I don't know why you are not doing something pleasant with your retirement - having a stroll along Lake Michigan or ordering some deep pan for later ? Or are you stuck in a dark room in Russia waiting for your next paycheck from the kleptocrats.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
25 May 2018 #248
The jail was run by UB although every major decision, as with the rest of the prl and other ussr satellites was made by Moscow commies

Definitely until 1956 and the Gomułka thaw, that's for sure. Afterwards is a bit more complicated when they stopped executing people and instead moved towards 'preventative' measures like spying on society, but there's no doubt that Moscow was behind the terror inflicted on Poles under Stalinism. It wasn't Poles making these decisions - sure, there might have been goons doing some dirty work, but the whole system of terror was orchestrated and managed by Russian Soviets.

Now you're praising the system and apologizing for what the Soviets did to the polish nation?

Makes no sense at all, does it? There was a very deliberate and clear attempt by Moscow to destroy the pre-war Polish nation and replace it with something different. You only have to look at what happened to many AK men and women post war to see that.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
25 May 2018 #249
Given that its Monday morning in Chicago I don't know why you are not doing something pleasant with your retirement

It's actually Friday but I see your point. So, following your advice, the top on my convertible will go down in ten minutes and I will go for a little ride and a walk.

My questions are motivated by the fact that I see a lot of well informed people here who know things I don't. Over the years, I learned never to trust zealots and always ask for specifics. So many people "America" say how they hate Trump. When asked why, they are silent, pissed off, or blow you off with this profound: he is disgusting.

Now you're praising the system and apologizing for what the Soviets did to the polish nation?

I am not praising the system. I gave the system credit for the good things the system gave me.

I left 90% because my first salary in Poland was 1500zl. That was just enough to pay for the train to work and the lunches there. Or a white shirt and a pair of shoes w Domu Towarowym na Alejach Jerozolimskich. Plaszcz ortalionowy was 1800 na Chmielnej.

I would never defend communism. Or the NAZI's. Hitler would not be able to commit his crimes without the smiling and happily cooperating German public.

My curiosity about Poland is to what extent the Soviets were aided and abetted by the Poles. As I said before, neither my dad nor me were members of PZPR. Nobody insisted that we join. He was doing fine as a scientist and was allowed to travel west before I left in 1966. My last address was Nowy Swiat 47a. Not bad for a guy who is not a member of PZPR. My high school was #37 a short walk from here.

I have very little sympathy for those who would for some principle risk their lives and the fate of their families. Those who were that stupid took the risks and lost.

Bottom line: how much culpability would an objective criminal court assign to the Soviets and how much to the Polish collaborators? No, I am not expecting some deep research. Just an estimate. 50/50? 80/20? It is reasonable to assume that the Soviets alone would not be able to do all of it. Right?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,474
25 May 2018 #250
I am not praising the system. I gave the system credit for the good things the system gave me.

Yes but you still left because the con's outweighed the pro's. If the pro's outweighed the con's you would've stayed.

It is reasonable to assume that the Soviets alone would not be able to do all of it. Right?

Of course. I'd say 50/50. Soviets gave the Polish commies a general directive, orders to follow, etc. and it was for Poles to conduct those orders. It's like a general or commander giving an order to his troops.

Naturally, there were many opportunistic Poles who followed the Soviet's commands with great enthusiasm and zeal, mostly for selfish reasons like getting some extra rations, speeding up their order for a new Warszawa or Syrenka or Polonez or whatever other car the authorities were mass producing at the time, or moving up in the party or whatever their reasons were.

Some joined the party to survive, some joined to advance their careers, but very very few joined because they actually believed in the communist system.

Hitler would not be able to commit his crimes without the smiling and happily cooperating German publi

Actually only about 7% of Germans were Nazi party members. Hitler lost the presidential election of 1932 and was appointed as chancellor in 33 - he wasn't elected into this post, and in the federal election of 1930 the Nazis only controlled about 18% of the seats in the Reichstag.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
25 May 2018 #251
but very very few joined because they actually believed in the communist system.

I read somewhere that in the early days, there were some people who were committed communists because they genuinely believed that it offered an alternative and better future for Poland - the previous system had failed, so Communism was seen as a possible solution to the militarisation of society. Some were also pretty angry at the previous government's way of doing things in rural areas, where you had rich absent landlords that controlled large swathes of land just because they were someone in the army.

An interesting what-if question - what if the Soviets had allowed (from 1945 onwards) a specifically Polish form of Communism that took into account the needs of Polish society, such as land redistribution and freedom of religion? Would it have been broadly accepted?
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,474
25 May 2018 #252
Would it have been broadly accepted?

I doubt it, Poland was basically in a state of civil war after WW2. Those loyal to anders and pilsudzki's memory, the AK, NSZ, and other anti-communists fought the Red Army, it's supporters, and many of the surviving Jews and those moving into Poland from the eastern territories. The Polish Christians tended to side with the anti-communists while the Jews and other minorities tended to side with the Red Army and communists. That's one of the reasons why almost the entire leadership of Poland's commies during the years after WW2 were Jews. Government, ministers, security services were overwhelmingly Jewish while the military was mainly commanded by Soviet officers. Yes, at first Polish peasants did like the ideas of communism. However, after their food was confiscated without compensation and they were left starving they weren't too fond of the system. Also, the nonstop rapes and murders committed by the red army, which was thought of as the vanguard of communism, also turned many Poles off.

The majority of Poles never wanted communism. However, after WW2 and with the soviets already occupying the country they had no way to repel a system they did not want and the west didn't want to help them as they too were tired of fighting.

The actual results of the 3x tak referendum shows that the majority of Poles rejected abolition of the senate and a command economy.
mafketis 21 | 7,463
25 May 2018 #253
What specifically did the Russians do to Poland?

Planted flowers and led happy singing and dancing and hoped to accept the love of the Polish people in return? Then the foul imperialist running dog Poles returned their many wonders bestowed upon them by the benevolent leadership of the CCCP. Horrible ungrateful people, Poles are, every last one of them.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
25 May 2018 #254
Actually only about 7% of Germans were Nazi party members.

That's a deflection. My point is that Hitler was universally loved when he was bombing, killing and conquering. In that context, the Russian rape of Berlin was social justice at its best. It will be many years before Germans forget how f****** with the Russians feels at the end. Today, a German-Russian war would last less than a lunch break.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
25 May 2018 #255
In that context, the Russian rape of Berlin was social justice at its best.

Oh dear you need help.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
25 May 2018 #256
Of course. I'd say 50/50. Soviets gave the Polish commies a general directive, orders to follow, etc. and it was for Poles to conduct those orders.

OK. Were the Polish collaborators reluctant and acting out of fear while collaborating with the Soviets, or were they doing what they were told happily and then some for extra credits?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
25 May 2018 #257
Oh dear you need help.

A lot of it, I'd say. Not only does he downplay Katyń as being a minor event (it wasn't, it was the officer cadre of one of the biggest military forces in WW2 getting exterminated and was clearly a huge war crime and act of genocide), but now he downplays the brutality of the Russian attack on Berlin as being 'social justice'.

Pretty obvious what his agenda is, to be honest.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
25 May 2018 #258
Oh dear you need help.

No, I don't. The smiling and cheering Germans did but they didn't want to listen to that the inner voice of reason everybody has.
Crow 137 | 7,756
25 May 2018 #259
Oh dear you need help.

On the other side, when you think of siege of Stalingrad (Volgograd) and all German atrocities on Russian soil during that war, you can`t escape thinking how is real wonder that Russians didn`t just erase complete Germany and all Germans there from the face of Earth.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
25 May 2018 #260
The smiling and cheering Germans did

Thats the problem not all Germans did cheer or support the Nazis, not all Brits voted brexit, not all poles betrayed and murdered jews, real life and history is far more complicated than your narrow view, but keep going with your rhetoric it might catch on, after all some your generation has obviously learned nothing or chosen to forget the lessons of history, enjoy WW III im sure you are heading that way, I have already enjoyed my long life in relative peace so no worries here.

I hope no one ever invades your country or rapes your mother or daughter only for someone years later to to say it was social justice, I hope you will just take one moment to think about what you said, I wish you well , I hope these terrors never befall your family.
mafketis 21 | 7,463
25 May 2018 #261
Were the Polish collaborators reluctant and acting out of fear while collaborating with the Soviets

No! The filthy bast@rds were betraying the Soviets. That's all Poland has ever done, betray Russia, the cradle of Slavdom! It's a cruel and nauseating country full of the worst kind of dishonorable backstabbers!
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,474
25 May 2018 #262
@Rich Mazur
Both. If they defied the russians and demanded a 'liberal version of communism/socialism, basically one with an open press, elections that aren't rigged, etc (pretty reasonable imo) then theyd be immediately invaded with soviet tanks just like czechoslovakia and hungary were when the people and their leadwrs made those demands. Faced with this scenario, poles decided the best of a bad situation. Some did it by opening small businesses and selling or bartering rationed goods, some brought dollars, jeans, vcrs from the west, others informed on their own family and friends and beat up or even murdered pesky agitators and everything in between. The soviet system changed every pole, and not for the better. Although yes there were certain pros of the prl. There was more equality since basically everyone was poor, families were more united, there was less crime, less greed, and less career stress since no one took their job too seriously. Nonetheless, I feel the modern system has more pros than communism did.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
25 May 2018 #263
you can`t escape thinking how is real wonder that Russians didn`t just erase ... Germany and all Germans from the face of Earth.

Are you the only one here able to keep things in perspective?

The Russians in Berlin were gentle pussy cats in their treatment of Germans considering what these bastards did to them without any provocation whatsoever. "Social justice" was exactly what happened: raping a German woman whose husband raped and murdered the Russians. This term is used in the US when blacks want reparations from me for the slaves I never owned.

You know what's really weird here? I said exactly the same thing you just did in 1960 when I was in the 11th grade in Liceum #37 in Warsaw; that all German men who took part in the war in any capacity should be executed and Germany disbanded. Well, the Russians were a lot nicer. They just too with them anything that could be lifted back to Russia. At the same time the Americans were pouring money into the West sector, creating a welfare state to ride America's back for the years to come.

Back to Katyn. With the war casualties somewhere around 50,000,000 world wide, the 20,000 killed in Katyn is a drop in the bucket. I realize that many of you are emotionally invested in all things Polish and threat Poland as the center of the universe. This emotional approach was so clearly visible when someone here wrote that the Katyn victims were Polish officers. What if they were plumbers? Does it change anything?

Crow, I made some changes to the quote to meet the forum rules.

Thats the problem not all Germans did cheer or support the Nazis, not all Brits voted brexit, not all poles betrayed and murdered jews

That "not all" is a straw argument. If it is meant to be just a detached sentence, it's a truism that should never be said.

In the US, we have invented the best response to truisms: duh!
TheWizard - | 238
26 May 2018 #264
More of the world needs to know just how many ukis Poland has taken. Its been a while now. Some of those people should be finishing degrees just about now.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,474
26 May 2018 #265
You know rich, I defended you against other posters because we do need new members so I asked them to kindly lay off. But goddamn....

No those 20k killed in katyn werent a drop in the bucket. Those were peoples brothers husbands fathers, just as the 50 mil killed during ww2. You are rationalizing again. I'm sure if one of your kids was killed you wouldn't be cheering that atleast you and your wife were spared. No youd be crying and your world would be just as shattered. Just because more people died in another incident doesnt make a lesser casualty count any less significant and heartbreaking. And im sure if your wife was gang raped by a bunch of drunken red army soldiers in sure you wouldn't be say meh social.justice for what we poles did during the troubles

You know with all this talk of defending soviet atrocities and saying katyn was a drop in the bucket youre starting to sound a lot like stalin. The things you write as not much different than those coming out of Stalin's mouth, namely the death of one is a tragedy, the death of a million is just a statistic

The fact that they were all officers is important because it was a deliberate attempt by the Soviets to wipe out the officer corps, leadership and intelligentsia. Even hitler didn't do that to the countries he br just as bad if they rounded up all the plumbers and shot anyone who they deemed unreliable to the communist cause - which depending on your career was enough to get you killed. So bye bye to priests, artists, writers and most college educated people. Had you been born some 20 years earlier you could've easily ended up as one of the poles killed by the russians. And I doubt your family would be saying oh well its just a drop in the bucket compared to all.the others that died
Tacitus 2 | 889
26 May 2018 #266
"Social justice" was exactly what happened: raping a German woman whose husband raped and murdered the Russians.

You are seriously demented in your views.

The Russians raped whoever they wanted. Old woman, children. Germans, Poles, KZ survivors.... .

There was no justice behind it.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,752
26 May 2018 #267
The Russians raped whoever they wanted. Old woman, children. Germans, Poles, KZ survivors....

I specifically and as clearly as I could referred to the Russians raping Germans as a form of justice like in: you rape my woman I will rape yours. Except that later you killed my woman, Mr German soldier.

You know rich, I defended you against other posters because we do need new members so I asked them to kindly lay off. But goddamn....

I see the problem that will not go away. You are emotionally invested in Poland. I am not any more. Poland to me is like any other country. I went there because I was curious, not because I have any feelings for Poland. I could have just as well gone to see Helsinki or Moscow. So when I say that 20,000 in Katyn is a drop in a bucket compared to 50,000,000 worldwide, I mean it becaue it is factually correct.

If you can, from this point on treat me as you would a random guy from Nepal and things will be a lot simpler.
Ironside 48 | 9,900
26 May 2018 #268
I wrote that the Katyn casualties on the world scale is hardly noticable.

Even if all you do here is trolling you're still a clueless moron.

My curiosity about Poland is to what extent the Soviets were aided and abetted by the Poles.

What da ya know, a boy is one brick shy of a full load. lol! -------------------------------------
If such a info would be of a real interest to anyone - without Soviet Divisions on the ground, NKVD and all that terror apparatus - commies, soviet or what have you of Polish extraction wouldn't had have lasted a day.
Crow 137 | 7,756
26 May 2018 #269
I am still convinced how is Polish-Russian cooperation inevitable. How would you, my sisters and brothers, manage that in this malevolent world, I frankly don`t know but, its necessary. Its necessary for greater business. We Serbians have few ideas.
mafketis 21 | 7,463
26 May 2018 #270
So when I say that 20,000 in Katyn is a drop in a bucket

More Kremlin party line. The standard Russian response to Katyn (or the Holodomor) is essentially "Hey, the Russian government killed even more people (some other example) so who cares? The Russian government kills lots of people. What are you gonna do? Nothing, we just have to accept it"

If you were once Polish, now you're Russian Zdravstvujte!


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