Abortion still under control in Poland - part 2

You ignored that "100%".

Plus, life without parole is a licence to kill while in prison. Not every prison is like the Black Dolphin or ADX Florence.

Wanna try again?

A crime should result in punishment. I argue that spending a few decades in a shithole is going to be much harder for the criminal than getting a bullet in his head. If that was untrue, the concept of "torture" would not even exist.

You worry about something that has a 0.05% chance of occurring.

You continue ignoring what I wrote.

The first purpose of imprisonment or execution it prevention. Nobody gives a damn how the SOB feels.

What if he said: I love it here. Free food, room, good company...Would you be willing to execute him?

This BS how prison is worse than the DP is what people outside say, not the convicts.

That is her choice but if that was me I would be opting for an abortion. There is no way that I could give birth to a rapist's child and keep it or have it adopted. It would be far too traumatic. I do not see early stage abortion as murder.


As Paulina has said, I hope that your wife and daughter never have to make such a decision but they might feel differently if it happened to them. I hope that you would not insist that either one goes ahead with a pregnancy if they changed their mind. Where is your compassion?


I don't know how you can make that statement when you follow it up with:


Are you for life or against it because from what you're saying here you're trying to play God. One life is worth more than another in your opinion?

Neither do I. My feelings about abortion tend to go back to the idea of natural viability (ability of the fetus to survive outside the mother) in other words, abortion should be more available earlier on rather than later on (roughly after 5 months or so) and in later pregnancy should be very difficult (and mostly depend on health of the mother factors).

No one really thinks of fetuses as human beings... if they did then miscarried pregnancies would require the same kind of paperwork as a live birth. Spontaneous abortion (about 10% of all pregnancies) would be considered a healthcare calamity and require medical inquiries....

Does the catholic church offer funerals for miscarriages or stillbirths? Relatives of a friend had a child that died tragically at 3... and the church were kind of awful about the funeral... refusing a ceremony in the church (only by the graveside).


All human beings think some lives are more important than others. Anyone making claims to the contrary is lying.

Perhaps that's the reason you think that way. Unfortunately for you, it is murder.
---

It is very easy to understand. I don't know why people have a problem with it. One is an innocent child; the other is a malicious character with evil deeds on his account.

I would say you are the opposite of everyone else, with age; you become less wise.
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and nasty. Why are you so sexist? On top of it, it is a pointless argument as men do not get pregnant.
There is another argument to be made - that women get pregnant against men's consent or will. What then? Should the abortion be the right answer, too?
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Women are predisposed to kill weaker than they are, old, children, and the sick.
They can be nurturing, but that is not guaranteed; it is often a nice story we, as a society, wish were true. Perhaps it's a narrative shared by those who have been fortunate enough to have such a mother or grandmother. In general, women are not as kind as traditional conventions suggest.
--

In the long term, well-being can be ensured by having a baby rather than killing it.

Those would be my feelings too.


I believe there is a funeral mass for stillborn babies.


I agree but Torq is taking the moral high ground here and as a devout Catholic he cannot justifiably argue that one life is worth more than another.


Are you Catholic Iron?

It is a tricky question, by which I mean it would demand a complex answer. Furthermore more I don't see what it has to do with the issue we are talking about.
It is not that we are debating teaching and dogmas of different religious denominations.

This just makes me merge my mental image of you with Darek from The Office PL: "Jestem niewierzący, ale praktykujacy"

The law-givers have full right to administer death penalty. It says in the Bible about the authorities in power: "if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer" (Romans 13:4). St. Paul affirms the legitimate authority of state/civil rulers to execute justice, even by capital punishment, and in traditional Catholicism the death penalty has historically been considered morally permissible in principle.

Of course, after the lamentable Vaticanum Secundum (which, luckily, was a pastoral not a dogmatic council, so I am not obligated to believe any of its commie/mason nonsense) the Church made a mistake of allowing itself to be infuenced by masons, protestants, leftards and other retards, and shifted its position to anti death penalty. Thank God, most conservatists (aka sane people) in Poland support death penalty and rightly so. We hope and pray that our Mother Church will one day abandon its modernist ways and go back to conservatist, traditional teaching on capital punishment.

And this is, of course, not the point. The question is not whether the life of a rapist or a murdered is worth more or less than the life of an innocent child. The question is whether civil rulers can administer capital punishment on the wrongdoer, according to state law. As we can see above, the biblical position is clear - yes, they can.

Such statements never cease to amuse me.

Communists did not see confiscation of people's wealth as theft, and yet that is exactly what it was. Nazis did not see liquidating Jews as murder of human beings, and yet that is exactly what it was.

The way people like you see conceived children, living in the mothers' wombs, is not unlike Nazis saw the Jews - a sort of Untermenschen that we should be allowed to murder freely for our own well-being or whatever other reason.

Unfortunately, for you, murder is still murder and hell is still hell--the place where murderers will end up, regardless of their personal opinions or feelings ... (unless they confess their sins and genuinely repent).



LOL xD

@mafketis @Feniks

I really like you, people. :) You're slightly retarded but quite likeable too and I wouldn't like to see you engulfed by infernal flames for eternity. Therefore, take my advice: confess your sins, repent, stop talking nonsense and start defending the lives of children, whether they are 1-day-old and still in their mother's womb or 7-year-old and at primary school. Murdering children is wrong regardless of their age.

And I am truly terrified that I have to explain this to people.

A fetus =/= a child


Are children who die before 24 weeks of pregnancy registered in Poland?

If not... why not?

No woman has to...

Here is the sequence:

1. Rape.
2. 911
3. Police
4. Hospital to flush the sperm out

... all in less than one hour. No pregnancy to abort and no need for "abortion rights".


A fetus = a live human being

In the US, cutting up a dead body is a felony.

I'm glad true Christians still exist.

I hope you are aware of the underlying Paulina's tendencies to bring the innocent wives and daughters into the conversation, even though she knows nothing about them. Ugly trait, must be implanted in her genes. Please don't dismiss the shameful tactic, she is using it as a mace, like primitive cave woman.

It appears that you continue to deny the ontological and moral status of the unborn as members of the human family, and stubbornly maintain a position that excludes the conceived child from the category of personhood or human identity.

Ah, well... I hope you will enjoy the lake of fire and the eternity of being sodomized by horny demons. Who knows, maybe with time you will even learn to enjoy it. Fingers crossed.

Before I was a Christian, I developed a well-functioning brain that told me this about that "fetus" thing:

It's alive because it's not dead.

It's human because it's not a cat.

"Being" is like "something" and is self-evident.

I came to this conclusion when I was 6. Then I learned about Jesus and got Holy Communion.


A variant of "what if it was you".

Hey, Ptak, I am glad you are back to move the needle toward sanity.


We dehumanize what we want to kill. Hence, "fetus", not a human being. Latin or Greek helps, too...

That's an important step. You seem to align your position on many important issues with the values of true Christians.

I do no such thing... I simply don't think of conception as the beginning of a person in any legal or moral way. Implantation would be a better benchmark though again at least 30% of fertilized eggs fail to implant and so die and yet no one seems to think they deserve any consideration.

Around 10-20% of pregnancies then end in miscarriage before week 20. If these are human children dying then why aren't catholics calling for more medical research to bring that number down. Should a woman who just miscarried into a toilet be able to flush it or should she preserve it so that a proper death certificate can be made?

A fetus is human but lacks the moral status of a person. I don't think there's a magic dividing line from fetus to person (apart from birth). Again, I have more moral for fetuses past the viability stage than before it.

Abortion should be a last resort in cases where something has gone very wrong (including rape). If a woman wants to give birth to her rapist's baby then she should but I don't think she should be forced to.

Because Christian values align with human and common sense values.

It's actually very easy to be a Christian. No stupid surgeries, no throwing people off the roofs, no honor killings, no 72 virgins for slashing infidfel throats...

Just don't do what you don't want done to you. Even my cat follows this rule

Hey, stupid, a corpse "lacks the moral status of a person". You cut it up into smaller pieces in your basement, and you are a convicted felon very quickly.

BTW, who bestows or removes that "moral status of a person"?

For future use, your rectum is not a good source of anything of value to this forum.

To me, besides the God's teachings, the most important point against abortion is the fact that a fetus has its own DNA. It is not the mother's DNA; it is a separate human being.

By that logic, a miscarried fetus is a separate human being but is not counted as one by..... anyone.

Not so fast...When I was about to come out, they asked me how much 2+3 was. I didn't have a clue so I was abortable.


Hey, stupid, don't embarrass yourself ... Quoting:

Fetal Homicide Laws

Many states have laws that recognize an unborn child as a victim in cases of homicide...
There are at least 38 states with fetal homicide laws.

You murder a pregnant woman and you are going down for two...

What an ignorant moron...

Yes, some people need to catch up with the abortion / unborn laws:

"Many jurisdictions treat the killing of a pregnant woman and her fetus as a double homoside."

• 
  unbornlaws.avif
  

Yes, people like him make me laugh lol They pick what they want from their religions and at the same time consider themselves "good Christians/Muslims/Jews, etc." and sh1t on those people who don't make the same "pickings" as them :D 🤦


John Paul II would be surprised to know that he was "a mason, a protestant, leftard and a retard" :D

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/popestate.html

"While the vast majority of U.S. Catholics support capital punishment, Pope John Paul II has declared the Church's near total opposition to the death penalty. In his encyclical "Evangelium Vitae" (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world's Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

Btw, Torq, if you are in favour of death penalty then
that means that in your worldview not all human life is sacred and not only God has the right to decide who lives or dies. But that means the lives of unborn children aren't sacred either.


That's clearly not what I wrote, so don't play dumber than you are.

It was my response to what johnny_reb wrote about abortion: "Murder is not a choice nor is it ethical."

My point was that there are instances in which even people like you, johnny_reb and Torq support or at least don't oppose "murdering unborn babies" - when the mother's life or health is in danger and abortion is necessary, right?
It is generally accepted by both parents, societies and probably majority of religions in the world that the mother's life is more important than that of an unborn baby.
Noone normal expects the pregnant woman to
sacrifice her life for an unborn baby. And if she has other kids already and would decide to do that anyway - she would be critised for that.

What I've noticed is that the attitude of people completely changes once the baby is born. Then both parents and the society views the vhil's life as even more important than that of a parent. Both (normal, loving parents) are ready to die for their kids. If someone needs saving from a dangerous situation people choose to save kids first.
So there's a difference in how people view a baby
when it's in the womb and once it's out of the womb.
Interesting, isn't?


Of course there are laws concerning unborn children at a y state of development. For me the issue here is not whether a fetus is a human being, because it obviously isn't a Castor anything else. The issue also isn't about whether an unborn baby has the
right to live or not. The thing is, in certain situations, as I think we all agree, the mother's rights/well-being take priority over the unborn baby's rights/life. The point of contention is what are those situations that warrant abortion.

That's all for now, I'll get back to commenting on
the rest when I feel like wasting my time on cruel,
heartless people. 😢

*child's


*any


lol
*a cat or


And not when it's just a fetus, but at every stage of development during pregnancy.

Except for the fact we weren't talking about a woman's life being in danger now were we.
Stop trying to sugar coat shlt by twisting words to make it sound good.
We were debating rape and abortions for convenience.
Again, abortion is not a choice, it is murder.

After eight weeks a fetus is considered a human.