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Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.


guesswho 4 | 1,289
29 Oct 2010 #151
That must be Crow ;)

I can't tell you right now who it was and I don't really feel like looking for it but yes, crow would be definitely a good possibility :-)
Mr Grunwald 29 | 2,014
29 Oct 2010 #152
crow would be definitely a good possibility :-)

I wouldn't be surprised
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
30 Oct 2010 #153
Ironside you are stubborn monkey you cannot rewrite history to fit your point or lies so please if he was Lithuanian then his last name would be different and would not be polish marshal. To use your logic that he was Lithuanian as he was born there, he was actually born in Russia.

you don't seem to understand the relationship between Poles and Lithuanians over the centuries, just because a Lithuanian speaks Polish does not disqualify him as a Lithuanian. You clearly not appreciate the cultural aspects of life at the time.

And another thing, Wilno was majority Polish speaking city at the time.
Marek11111 9 | 816
30 Oct 2010 #154
Wilno was majority Polish speaking city at the time.

it was in Lithuania borders so it was Lithuanian that Poland had no rights to so Poland was an oppressor and occupier of Lithuanians.
i do understand the relation, it was not so good for Lithuanians.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
30 Oct 2010 #155
I am afraid that you do not, because as you clearly indicated in your previous posts you do not know what constitutes a Pole and what constitutes a Lithuanian.
Marek11111 9 | 816
30 Oct 2010 #156
hague1cmaeron fact Lithuania form independent country after ww1 separated from Poland with it's own government.
fact Poland invaded and occupied Lithuania as per borders of Lublin union.
what constitutes Pole or Lithuanian maybe you can tell me as Pilsudski was not Lithuanian, his family might originated from there but he became Pole with his actions and oppressor of Lithuanians.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
30 Oct 2010 #157
fact

fact is that you have a **** for brains and are unwilling to learn !
Mr Grunwald 29 | 2,014
30 Oct 2010 #158
oppressor of Lithuanians.

Tell me give a link where Piłsudski issues order to occupy Lithuania and treat Lithuanians like ****! And renaming Kaunas into Kowno! please! Enlighten me! Because those "Lithuanians" in Vilnius (Wilno) were the ones themselves being in the divisions that made it happen that Vilnius (Wilno) came into Poland's hands...

Sorry to ruin your bubble but the Vilniuses (Wilniani) joined Poland themselves!
How can they be occupied when they fought to so that they will be in Poland?!

It's like saying that those Norwegians that drunk the Swedish guards so that the fellas drawing the border would go around their villages were Swedes and were occupied! It's nonsense!!!
Nathan 18 | 1,363
31 Oct 2010 #159
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius

How can they be occupied when they fought to so that they will be in Poland?!

In 1793, deputies to the Grodno Sejm, last Sejm of the Commonwealth, in the presence of the Russian forces, agreed to Russian territorial demands.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
Ironside 50 | 10,939
31 Oct 2010 #160
Nathan
Howdy Nat ! How many wiki quotes did you falsify today ?eh?
Mr Grunwald 29 | 2,014
1 Nov 2010 #161
Nathan when I said occupied Lithuania I ment the part which was inhabbited by Lithuanians which spoke Lithuanian and was anti-Polish

Tell me!! Because I can't remember any riots or uprisings in Vilnius (Wilno)

This operation paved the way for the Polish annexation of Vilnius, and the Vilnius Region, two years later.

I can't remembet the natives of Vilnius area (Wilno) being much upset, do you? Cause the only thing ive heard was that all the others living outside of that area (in Lithuania) were upset.

deputies to the Grodno Sejm, last Sejm of the Commonwealth, in the presence of the Russian forces, agreed to Russian territorial demands.

I say good one but still just because one wavers the flag it doesn't mena it wasn't an occupation.
The thing was there was so very few (almost none) Lithuanians speaking Lithuanian and feeling an bond with the newly formed Lithuanian republic that they didn't even surrender, they just got over flooded by civilians gretting the Polish division(s)
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
1 Nov 2010 #162
This news flash perfectly summarizes the main reasons of Polish anger.

Two Lithuanian Poles have been heavily fined by Lithuanian Language Inspection for putting double language boards on their buses:

Poland Latvia

The Lithuanian official says: They broke the law.

The problem is that it is only Lithuanian law while there is still superior European law about minorities and their rights.

The fined Poles say: We won`t give up.

Lithuania is going to lose the argument. Yet, they are still stubborn and treat their Polish minority with disrespect.

Lithuania must be an independent country at last. That is for sure. But they seem not to understand that they live in the multi language and multi ethnic country.

Poles perfectly understand that Wilno won`t be Polish again. I neither need it nor want it. It is a Lithuanian city now.

But we should never forget about Poles who, despite persecution, first Soviet and then Lithuanian, stayed there after WW2.

But, in the worst case, if Lithuanians don`t want to have anything in common with Poland, let them be Russian, instead. I won`t move my finger/ass when they become a Russian republic once again.

First step - Poland should sell the loss-generating Mozeiki Refinery to Russians.
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2010 #163
When you finally dig up the important and disturbing facts that Polish children are not allowed to chat in Polish between classes, the sign issue will seem minor and your thread will give a better picture of the problem.
Harry
1 Nov 2010 #164
Polish children are not allowed to chat in Polish between classes

Even if you do manage to dig up a copy of school rules supporting that claim, there will still be the problem that Poland did precisely the same to her minorities back when the shoe was on the other foot. What goes around does eventually come around and it's hard to have sympathy for those who complain when others do to them exactly what they used to do to others.
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
1 Nov 2010 #165
Even if you do manage to dig up a copy of school rules supporting that claim, there will still be the problem that Poland did precisely the same to her minorities back when the shoe was on the other foot.

Yes, it did. That was silly and harmful.

What goes around does eventually come around and it's hard to have sympathy for those who complain when others do to them exactly what they used to do to others.

It seems that you haven`t noticed we live in 21 century and both countries are in the EU and should abide to its law.

Did you notice it?
Harry
1 Nov 2010 #166
both countries are in the EU and should abide to its law.

And Poland should abide by EU law by not discriminating against British citizens who wish to register their cars in Poland. When Poland abides by all EU laws, then Poland can complain about other nations not abiding by EU law.
Borrka 37 | 594
1 Nov 2010 #167
When Poland abides by all EU laws, then Poland can complain about other nations not abiding by EU law.

BS. Who said that ?
Harry
1 Nov 2010 #168
Who said that ?

I said it: James Lionel Price.
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
1 Nov 2010 #169
First step - Poland should sell the loss-generating Mozeiki Refinery to Russians.

That is why I don`t fill up at Orlen gas stations because they are the most expensive. It seems that Orlen, (the biggest Polish oil company) makes up for its Lithuanian losses here, in Poland.

Orlen sore issues over Mozeiki refinery:

What generates losses exactly?

1. Lithuanians removed 19 kilometre-long railway track which led to Latvian border and was used to export oil through the Latvian sea terminal in Lipawa.

2. Lithuanians charge too high fees for the transport of oil by their railways.

3. Lithuanians charge too high fees for using their oil terminal in Kłajpeda.

Let me remind you that in 2006, soon after Poles bought the refinery, Russians stopped sending crude oil to it through the Friendship pipeline. Now the import to the inland refinery is based on Venezulean oil which is transported by sea and then railways.

But the cost of such solution is too high and generally the whole business is in the red.

I don`t want to pay for that.

Let Russians take it over.
Torq
1 Nov 2010 #170
Poland did precisely the same to her minorities back when the shoe was on the other foot.
What goes around does eventually come around and it's hard to have sympathy for
those who complain when others do to them exactly what they used to do to others.

How can we not consider you a complete and utter idiot, after reading the quoted part of your post?

Maybe Jews in Israel should start murdering Germans today - hey, what goes around comes
around, right? And Germans shouldn't complain, because that would be exactly what they
used to do to Jews, right?

Yes - let every nation avenge everything that was ever done to them in history - WHAT GOES
AROUND COMES AROUND - let the hell break out. REVENGE!!! WHAT GOES AROUND COMES
AROUND!!!
REVENGE in 2010 for what happened during WW2 and before!!! REVENGE!!!

...

Or maybe (just maybe) we should ignore hatred spewing sickfu*cks and treat those
who spread such views with contempt that they deserve?
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
1 Nov 2010 #171
The Polish government is working on a new law.

Have you got any other sore issues with Polish law which is against EU law?
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2010 #172
And Poland should abide by EU law by not discriminating against British citizens who wish to register their cars in Poland. When Poland abides by all EU laws, then Poland can complain about other nations not abiding by EU law.

Argument worth studying. Only in a sense which logical fallacy it actually is.

Same here. Discussions with Harry and Delphinamine would end very quickly if one were to spend a little time identifying fallacies. These two are excellent subjects for this. The second quote is a tu quoque fallacy in informal logic:

The tu quoque fallacy is committed when it is assumed that because someone else has done a thing there is nothing wrong with doing it. This fallacy is classically committed by children who, when told off, respond with "So and so did it too", with the implied conclusion that there is nothing wrong with doing whatever it is that they have done. This is a fallacy because it could be that both children are in the wrong, and because, as we were all taught, two wrongs don't make a right.

logicalfallacies.info/presumption/tu-quoque
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
1 Nov 2010 #173
When you finally dig up the important and disturbing facts that Polish children are not allowed to chat in Polish between classes, the sign issue will seem minor and your thread will give a better picture of the problem.

Prove it. And I want to see the actual rules, not nonsense reported in nationalist, xenophobic newspapers which have been convicted of lying like Gazeta Polska. Heck, if you can provide something reported in Gazeta Wyborcza or Rzeczpospolita, it'll be a start.

Or is this just another case of believing everything you read?

there will still be the problem that Poland did precisely the same to her minorities back when the shoe was on the other foot. What goes around does eventually come around and it's hard to have sympathy for those who complain when others do to them exactly what they used to do to others.

Yup. The Ukrainian case is rather well documented. It would seem that Poles don't like their own medicine.

When Poland abides by all EU laws, then Poland can complain about other nations not abiding by EU law.

Sounds fair to me. Or is it a case of the old double standards? Let's not forget that Poland refuses to supply information in all the community languages, despite there being an obligation to do so.
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Nov 2010 #174
The point is that it does not matter what you will be presented with - you think Poles deserve it. I don't have time for that nonsense. I'll stop here because the rest would be all insults.

Pawian, here is the education issue:

Michalak rating in August, in a letter sent to Żiobiene that the bill , which is to be adopted at the autumn session of the Lithuanian Parliament , could lead to the closure of nearly two-thirds of Polish schools in Lithuania.

The project , which provides , inter alia, reorganization of schools, which precisely determines that comprehensive school can work only when it has no less than two eleventh grade , in which there are no less than 40 students . If it is impossible to meet, local governments will have to liquidate smaller facility . The Act at that school will be preferred state language .

According to the Polish Children's Ombudsman , the implementation of the Act will take place " at the expense of schools for national minorities" . " Then, with 40 currently operating Polish schools can remain 13, and it is worth noting that today science in Polish in Lithuania uses about 16 thousand . Children and young people " - noted in the list Michalak.

Harry
1 Nov 2010 #175
Pawian, here is the education issue:

Interesting article. But I can't see the bit about Polish children being forbidden from chatting in Polish between classes. Am I reading it wrong?

If education is so important for minorities, perhaps Poland shouldn't have been so interested in closing hundreds of Lithuanian schools back when Poland had annexed part of Lithuania.

The point is that it does not matter what you will be presented with - you think Poles deserve it. I don't have time for that nonsense.

Hmm, if it was anybody else who was posting that, I'd say they were posting that because they can not produce the actual rules, rather thannot nonsense reported in nationalist, xenophobic newspapers which have been convicted of lying like Gazeta Polska.
Piast Poland 3 | 182
1 Nov 2010 #176
It is there government that discriminates on some levels, but at least from experience, and what I hear from friends Lithuanians are nice people. The issues that need to be resolved are the spelling of names and the old arguments over was so and so Lithuanian or Polish. Im wondering how many here have had experience with lithuanians and are not just acting out on perceived beliefs.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
1 Nov 2010 #177
The point is that it does not matter what you will be presented with - you think Poles deserve it. I don't have time for that nonsense. I'll stop here because the rest would be all insults.

All we're asking for is the copy of the actual school rules. It's not that difficult to produce, surely?

Or is this just another myth posted by convicted liars at Gazeta Polska?
OP pawian 176 | 14,299
1 Nov 2010 #178
All we're asking for is the copy of the actual school rules. It's not that difficult to produce, surely?

Delphian, be serious, what do you expect us to find? And how? A copy of Lithuanian school rules? Do you know what language they are written in? :):):):)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,858
1 Nov 2010 #179
Well, I'd like to know where this story comes from ;)

Or maybe it's not from Gazeta Polska, but Nasza Polska!
Torq
1 Nov 2010 #180
I read the story about Lithuanians changing educational regulations for Polish minority
to make it harder for them to upkeep Polish schools (like increasing the limit of children
for Polish schools to be allowed functioning, for example.)

You can read more about the difficulties that Polish schools face in Lithuania, because
of local authorities and ministerial regulations, in the article "Litwo, ojczyzno czyja?"
in this year's 37th issue of "Tygodnik Powszechny" (Kraków, September 12th, 2010),
one of the most (if not the most) respectable and unbiased weeklies in Poland.
If you fail to find the article online, I will scan it for you and send it through PM.

Also, if you go to your local kiosk tomorrow, you may still be able to buy the latest
issue of "Najwyższy Czas!" (conservative-liberal weekly), where you will find a good
article on the lack of goodwill of Lithuanian authorities when it comes to issues like
confiscated Polish real estate, bilingual signs or spelling of Polish names.

I hope you will not try to disparage the professionalism of the above mentioned
weeklies' journalists.

If education is so important for minorities, perhaps Poland shouldn't have been so interested in closing hundreds of Lithuanian schools back when Poland had annexed part of Lithuania.

LOL

If education is so important for Polish minority in Lithuania today then... Poland shouldn't
have closed Lithuanian schools 90 years ago... WOW - you really are a half-wit :)


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