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Polish Lithuanian Diplomatic War? At last.


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
1 Nov 2010 #181
Or is this just another myth posted by convicted liars at Gazeta Polska?

What are you talking about ? This issue is heated up by "enlightened" Tusk's "government". What's more, they do that only in order to cover their pathetic results of "governing" Poland with other problems.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
1 Nov 2010 #182
What has Tusk got to do with the fact that Gazeta Polska are convicted liars?

Anyway, the average PiS voter fully supports bashing Lithuania.
jonni 16 | 2,485
1 Nov 2010 #183
What are you talking about ? This issue is heated up by "enlightened" Tusk's "government". What's more, they do that only in order to cover their pathetic results of "governing" Poland with other problems.

By the way, talking about Polish/European relations, have you given back 'your' share of EU subsidies, as you planned to?
Torq 26 | 2,371
1 Nov 2010 #184
Anyway, the average PiS voter fully supports bashing Lithuania.

LOL

"Tygodnik Powszechny" is the last newspaper in Poland that can be described as PiS supporters :)

However, seeing what kind of idiots devote their time and "intellectual powers" to PiS bashing,
makes me want to vote for them in the upcoming elections (even though I never voted for them
before.)
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
1 Nov 2010 #185
"Tygodnik Powszechny" is the last newspaper in Poland that can be described as PiS supporters :)

You know, that newspaper seems to be what I've actually been looking for - something middle of the road that doesn't resort to sensationalism.
Harry
1 Nov 2010 #186
You can read more about the difficulties that Polish schools face in Lithuania, because
of local authorities and ministerial regulations.

It is available online.

Lithuania, whose fatherland ?

Is the Polish -Lithuanian declarations of cooperation and friendship have anything to do with reality? In the region of Vilnius between Lithuanians and Poles battle rages over land , education , churches, and even the spelling of names.


But it doesn't mention anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish between lessons, try again.

If education is so important for Polish minority in Lithuania today then... Poland shouldn't have closed Lithuanian schools 90 years ago...

What goes around comes around. Pity so many Poles take so long to learn that.
Torq 26 | 2,371
1 Nov 2010 #187
it doesn't mention anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish between lessons

Where did I say anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish?
Care to quote me, or should I assume that, again, you're just doing what you do
best - lying?

What goes around comes around.

Seems to me like it's your life motto :)

*readers, please, refer to my post no. 172 in this thread to fully appreciate Harry's
"What goes around comes around" philosophy :)*

Harry
1 Nov 2010 #188
Where did I say anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish?

You posted that like in reply to delphiandomine saying "Well, I'd like to know where this story comes from".

Care to quote me,

I will be most happy to, just as soon as you quote the post in which I said that you claimed that link did say anything about the supposed ban on children chatting in Polish. Oh, sorry, I said no such thing, so if you claimed I did, you'd be lying.
Torq 26 | 2,371
1 Nov 2010 #189
You posted that like in reply to delphiandomine saying "Well, I'd like to know where this story comes from".

I posted that in general connection with the issue of Polish education in Lithuania,
as described in other Polish newspapers, and never mentioned any ban on chatting
in Polish. So, you were lying again, we established that - good.

as soon as you quote the post in which I said that you claimed that link did say anything about the supposed ban on children chatting in Polish

Well, you did say...

it doesn't mention anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish between lessons, try again.

...in reply to my post (in which, as was said before, I never mentioned any ban on chatting in Polish.) So there.
Harry
1 Nov 2010 #190
So, you were lying again,

Please either post where I said that you posted that link and stated it was connected to the supposed ban on children chatting in Polish or withdraw your false claim that I lying by saying that you did.

So you mean that I did not say that you claimed that link did say anything about the supposed ban on children chatting in Polish. So in fact you are lying (repeatedly) when you say (repeatedly) that I am lying. Pathetic.
Torq 26 | 2,371
1 Nov 2010 #191
Please either post where I said that you posted that link and stated it was connected to the supposed ban on children chatting in Polish or withdraw your false claim that I lying by saying that you did.

I never said that you said that I posted that link and stated it was connected to the
supposed ban on children chatting in Polish. All I did was asking you to show me where
I mentioned anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish:

Where did I say anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish?

...after you openly suggested that I did, by saying...

it doesn't mention anything about children being forbidden from chatting in Polish between lessons, try again.

...while I never mentioned anything about it.

So in fact you are lying (repeatedly) when you say (repeatedly) that I am lying. Pathetic.

Oh, please - why don't you stop pretending that you care about the truth. All you
do is annoy Poles on this forum with your despicable anti-Polish rants and accuse
them of lying (while in many cases those "lies" are simply misunderstandings).

What goes around comes around, I guess :)

It was a great mistake by our government (whichever government that was) to invite
you to our country as an expert. :D

Harry, Torq can you please stop this monotonous drivel
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
1 Nov 2010 #192
Anyway, the average PiS voter fully supports bashing Lithuania.

How do you know what average PiS voter think about this issue ? What that, or PiS itself, has to do with this issue anyway ? A fact is that in times of previous government Poland had a very good relations with Lithuania, now has "worst in Europe" as one of the prominent members of the current government said.

We are talking about a conflict between Polish and Lithuanian governments over the treatment of Polish minority in Lithuania. You may either agree that Lithuanian government is at fault or a Polish one, or partly both. What you are saying, however, is that It's "Polish xenophobes" fault, Gazeta Polska, PiS and whatever else you were probably told by some "enlightened" Poles is "evil", when these people are not an active side in this conflict.
Harry
1 Nov 2010 #193
what average PiS voter think

PiS voters think? Since when?
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 Nov 2010 #194
Or maybe it's not from Gazeta Polska, but Nasza Polska!

Look, I have been trying to find the info. I couldn`t.

But I found other interesting stuff about discrimination of Polish students and I can believe that in one school teachers went mad and ordered the Polish minority to speak Lithuanian during breaks. It is perfectly plausible, in view of the state of affairs it is now.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
1 Nov 2010 #195
Yup, that's what I think might have happened as well. I'm still waiting for some sort of credible published source about it (the Tygodnik Powszechny source is good, doesn't mention this alleged ban though) - but I think I'll be a long time in waiting.

If there were actual rules published about this, I dare say it would be all over the Polish media by now.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
2 Nov 2010 #196
Nathan when I said occupied Lithuania I ment the part which was inhabbited by Lithuanians which spoke Lithuanian and was anti-Polish

Did they come to Warsaw with an army? Why anti-Polish? Because they hated your guts for annexing their capital? How bad of them. Why do Poland is so indignant with so-called partitions? You should have loved when Prussia, Austria and Russia took away the lands which Poland itself unlawfully occupied. But hey, you don't love it. Then why expect love from Lithuanians when your army is on their lands?

What difference does it make that Poles settled in huge numbers in Lithuanian capital? It is still Lithuanian and happiness of those residents to be a part of Poland they may easily express on board of Vilnius-Poland one-way train.

I say good one but still just because one wavers the flag it doesn't mena it wasn't an occupation.

Just because there was no significant resistance from Lithuanians at the time when Poland broke 2 days ago signed international agreement in Suwalki doesn't mean that Poland behaved in just and noble way, did it?

The thing was there was so very few (almost none) Lithuanians speaking Lithuanian and feeling an bond with the newly formed Lithuanian republic that they didn't even surrender, they just got over flooded by civilians gretting the Polish division(s)

So who were those pervs who were not able to speak Lithuanian while being Lithuanians? People who have no respect for the language of a country they are living in have no say in similar matters at all. And Poland broke multiple laws. Pilsudski read too much of Bismarck, I think.

But we should never forget about Poles who, despite persecution, first Soviet and then Lithuanian, stayed there after WW2.

Quite some time to learn the language :) Why did those guys need translation of Vilnius into Wilno and stick it to the bus against the law? Pawian, you know that Lithuanian language was treated like sh*t, especially by Russians. It needs to recover from the centuries of unjust oppression. Language is the essential force of national renaissance and they need to set, maybe, harsh by 21 standards rules to let it get back to the level where it is supposed to be as a state language. By antagonizing the authorities you seem not fully agree with Vilnius as being Lithuanian. And many Poles think that way - you can't deny it. When they undo whatever foreign occupations by Poland and Russia did, they will definitely loosen the grip. You can't expect that country after centuries of being kicked in the b*tt will just let Polish language run loose in their country, especially in settled heavily by Polish settlers region who still cherish some sinful thoughts like much of their Poland's counterparts. My word to Polish Lithuanians - Learn the language of the country, respect the country you live in by speaking it, is this so hard?

Polish children are not allowed to chat in Polish between classes,

That's outrageous - provide me with a link, please, but not from newspaper "Kresy - Utracone ziemie" ;)
Marek11111 9 | 816
2 Nov 2010 #197
I do not know why people cannot look at thing objectively, is like everyone has a lenses that they look trough lenses of nationality.
Poland did occupied Lithuanian land and oppress Lithuanian inhabitance that is it and you cannot spin the fact other way.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
2 Nov 2010 #198
Poland did occupied Lithuanian land and oppress Lithuanian inhabitance that is it and you cannot spin the fact other way.

Well, one could argue that a city with population in 65% Polish and in 2% Lithuanians should have been rather a part of Poland, not Lithuania... but let's say that Poland did occupied Lithuanian land and oppressed Lithuanians, not only in 20's and 30's but for centries, in Commonwealth times Lithuanians were opressed, marginalized and humiliated by Polish bustards, allright evil we. Now what does It have to do with treatment of Polish minority there in the 21st century ? Do you agree that now Lithuanians can as a revange ignore the European standards of minority rights ?
Ironside 48 | 9,900
2 Nov 2010 #199
What about EU regulation regarding rights of the minorities? Would you support Poland if she will decide not to honor them?
Marek11111 9 | 816
2 Nov 2010 #200
look grzegorz stop spinning, Poland did not occupy vilno by itself but fast region of Lithuania land with majority in population of Lithuanians.
Commonwealth borders ware much different then borders after ww1 so look it up where the Lithuanian-Polish border should be.
Ironside 48 | 9,900
2 Nov 2010 #201
look grzegorz

look Marek you have no clue about the subject, stop pretending otherwise because your ignorance and stubbornness is getting on my nerves !
Majority of territories surrounding Wilnio had Polish majority, even today in some regions Poles are constituting overwhelming majority !
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
2 Nov 2010 #202
look grzegorz stop spinning, Poland did not occupy vilno by itself but fast region of Lithuania land with majority in population of Lithuanians.

Hmm I admit I don't know the exact figures for the whole region annexed by Poland but so far I have thought that Poles were by far the largest group there, please correct me If I'm wrong.
Harry
2 Nov 2010 #203
but so far I have thought that Poles were by far the largest group there, please correct me If I'm wrong.

Germans and Russians were the largest groups in the areas which took part in conflict in September 1939: does that make their illegal in invasion of Poland just?!
Marek11111 9 | 816
2 Nov 2010 #204
grzegorz:
Majority of territories surrounding Wilnio had Polish majority, even today in some regions Poles are constituting overwhelming majority !

with this argument Germany took care of Sudetenland land and then Czech with Polish help and then Poland so to Lithuanians Pilsudski was just like Stalin or Hitler.

look the point is union of lublin had borders separating two countries and the border was west of bialystok there fore Poland was occupying force as it annex part of Lithuania.
Torq 26 | 2,371
2 Nov 2010 #205
It is still Lithuanian and happiness of those residents to be a part of Poland they may easily express on board of Vilnius-Poland one-way train

Those people have lived there for centuries. Who are you to suggest the ethnic cleansing
of Poles from Wilno?

Should the members of German minority in Poland board the first train to Germany?
No, of course they shouldn't - and they enjoy all the rights that are granted to them
by bilateral deals between Poland and Germany as well as EU regulations.
Why should it be any different with Polish minority in Lithuania?

And Poland broke multiple laws. Pilsudski read too much of Bismarck, I think.

but not from newspaper "Kresy - Utracone ziemie"

Nathan, Nathan, Nathan... it is only because of my goodwill, civilness and a credit of trust
that you have with me that so far I have decided not to treat your activity in this thread
as breaking the Hrubieszów Agreement. Please do not exhaust the trust credit you have
and cease your anti-Polish posting. Thank you.

Mind you - I've recently read an article about... you know what... in a very respectable
newspaper, by internationally recognized Polish journalist, but I decided not to post it,
as that might be interpreted as breaking the Hrubieszów Agreement. Please show the same
restraint as I did, and do not interfere in Kresy related threads. Thank you.
1jola 14 | 1,879
2 Nov 2010 #206
The Lithuanians are to pass legislation which will eliminate 2/3 of Polish schools. Poles are not immigrants in today's Lithuania like some posters here compared Pakis in UK. You need to understand that first. These kids will now have to go to Lithuanian schools. Let's say they will be allowed to speak Polish during breaks. Wow.

Pawian, Torq, step back and realize that Harry and Dolph have sent you on a goose chase digging up a quote you haven't even quoted. Even demanded Lithuanian school rules from you. lol. Limited the sources you can quote, and took the opportunity to repeatedly smear Gazeta Polska, as if they have ever read it. PiS got it too, although they are not part of this Polish-Lithuanian row. They have achieved their goal of disrupting the real issue of this thread and led you by the nose. Mind you, you two are willing to agrue in good faith - they are not, as you well know, so why play their game?. Their position from the begining is: Poles deserve it. Go back a couple of pages and see how it is easy to show their "argument" to be a logical fallacy, which makes their agrument invalid from the start. You don't need to argue against nonsense, but only show that it is that.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
2 Nov 2010 #207
I just think that they are testing the arguments that is all, and good on them for doing that, any argument worth its salt is capable of forensic scrutiny. However I really to believe that in reality they actually agree.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
2 Nov 2010 #208
Pawian, Torq, step back and realize that Harry and Dolph have sent you on a goose chase digging up a quote you haven't even quoted. Even demanded Lithuanian school rules from you. lol.

No, Jola, we want the rules from you. Torq and pawian have given us what's publicly available, and linked us to sources which are credible. They admit happily that they don't have any evidence of it - nor are they claiming that such rules exist. YOU on the other hand brought up the "ban on Polish speaking" - and still haven't provided us with a credible source.

and took the opportunity to repeatedly smear Gazeta Polska, as if they have ever read it.

The newspaper was convicted in a Polish court of lying. Say no more. Torq and pawian can provide credible sources about this - why can't you?

Or are you admitting that you think that convicted liars are a good source of information?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
2 Nov 2010 #209
Should the members of German minority in Poland board the first train to Germany?

If they pronounce will to be part of Germany - yes! Because these people treat what is not solely theirs as private property. If they want to be in Germany - take your suitcases and get out. I hope not many Polish people disagree with me on this issue. Read attentively to what I said:

It is still Lithuanian and happiness of those residents to be a part of Poland they may easily express on board of Vilnius-Poland one-way train.

I have decided not to treat your activity in this thread
as breaking the Hrubieszów Agreement

I re-read the Hrubieszow agreement and didn't find any trespasses on my part. If you see my wrong, please, indicate which part I crossed.

Please do not exhaust the trust credit you have
and cease your anti-Polish posting.

Where have you seen any anti-Polish sentiments, Torq? Pilsudski himself confessed his direct involvement in the mutiny and all the military brouhaha which ended in the annexation of Lithuania. Did he lie? Regarding Lithuanian language - it needs time and Lithuanians of Polish origins, not being even immigrants, but 100% citizens should apply a bit more respect to THEIR land, which is not Poland. "Kresy - Utracone ziemie" is my ridicule of similarly named Polish sites which spread international hatred and by the number of subscribers clearly indicate that it is not 10 crazy people out there spreading it.

Mind you - I've recently read an article about... you know what... in a very respectable newspaper, by internationally recognized Polish journalist, but I decided not to post it, as that might be interpreted as breaking the Hrubieszów Agreement.

Again, the Hrubieszow agreement concerns itself with UPA-AK issues, not Lithuania and its Polish minority. If you are interested in signing another one which would mean other areas of history, I will be glad to work on them as well.

Please show the same restraint as I did, and do not interfere in Kresy related threads. Thank you.

Woooow...:) Torq, Torq... Are you trying to silence me up by making a thread about Ukrainian insurgents of UPA written by some world-renowned Polish journalist. Go ahead. Don't restrain yourself. Do what you have to do, but don't blackmail me so ingraciously. Polish Forums is a forum, not a dictatorship of "correct" thoughts. + as we both signed in Hrubieszow agreement - we are for Polish-Ukrainian committee to learn the history of those times in our mutual past. The key is to learn, not pour dirt on absent from this site Lithuanians who cannot, therefore, defend their position.

Let's say they will be allowed to speak Polish during breaks. Wow.

So, basically, you lied. Well, thanks, good to know. Think of something new to smear Lithuanians and then wow again. I seem to like it.

Their position from the begining is: Poles deserve it.

It is definitely not their position. Some Polish people have to understand what it is like. Look at Poland - you have 99% Catholics and around that of Poles. Does it tell you about your country's policy in the past? I think it does - moreover, that there are a lot of boasting about tolerance in the Commonwealth politics. Today, you boast that you are so open to put Lithuanian signs for some Polonized, Catholicized village inhabited by Poles of Lithuanian ancestry who after decades of "tolerance" are so interested in your signs! Good for you. You can afford it. They understandibly cannot. I wish to see how Poland would have behaved today if it was 50% Catholic, 26% Russian Orthodox and 24% Swedish Protestant? You would be singing another song. So, please, step back and look into the root of the problem. Put yourself in their shoes. Why do you always seem to view everything from your own point of view. I don't argue that there should be a dialogue and compromise can be achieved, but understand them.

any argument worth its salt is capable of forensic scrutiny.

Nice words.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
2 Nov 2010 #210
The Lithuanians are to pass legislation which will eliminate 2/3 of Polish schools. Poles are not immigrants in today's Lithuania like some posters here compared Pakis in UK. You need to understand that first. These kids will now have to go to Lithuanian schools. Let's say they will be allowed to speak Polish during breaks. Wow.

Exactly, they didn't just arrive there in recent years, they've lived on that land for hundreds of years, at one point that WAS Poland, like it or not. I like it how the Polish government isn't letting this slide and is keeping the pressure on.


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