Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash

If I understand you correctly, you ask whether there are some governing equations that simultaneously deal with with dynamics of solids or fluids and temperature. I start with elasticity theory: its natural generalization is called thermo-elasticity, which describes two-way interaction: stress produces heat, heat produces stress and stress induces strain, and from there a displacement.The next generalization involves magnetic effects and the theory is called magneto-thermo-elasticity.

Similarly, there is a theory called thermo-hydrodynamics, and this sort of stuff could be applied to astrophysics, after some modifications.

This time I was oversimplifying I don't think that he is an aviation expert per se. However he is an expert in his field. Everyday he is dealing with materials and mechanisms used in building aircraft. That way he is dealing with aviation.

To put it plainly he calculated that wing of Tu-154 couldn't be cut off by a birch of that size. All the calculations and simulation are there for any scientist to see.

You don't agree with him - fine prove that his calculation are wrong -fair enough.
Any scientist can do it - that scientific and only way.
Appearing on TV and babbling something about the issue is not the way at all. I don't need to know anything about Arytmowicz to know that it is politics not science what he is playing at. He is taking part in propaganda, I don't know whether he is doing that for money or other reasons but he is not doing it as a scientist.


Sure he is, he is politician after all.
It doesn't affect those calculations though.


boletus hold your horses, to investigate a crash there is plenty of experts needed, among them pilots, experts like Binienda and all, however here is only some theoretical calculation and only theoretical calculation can contradict that.

Anyway I don't understand what being a pilot has to do with it. After all pilots do not mow down threes on daily bases.


Lets cut the chase you are motivated by political bias. He is not right doctor, his part in propaganda performance disqualified him.

The right way to do it - i.e. explain Smolensk crash - is to assembly real commission and real experts, ask the USA for assistance and reclaim plane and black boxes.

This is the only way.
As for Binieda his theory is just theory but as long as somebody will not prove him wrong I think that is probable theory.


Speaking about swine ...............don't go monkey on me now! Because I will go Iron monkey on you if you will behave like that.

I looked at his presentation for For European Parliament March 28, 2012
smolenskcrash.eu/uploaded/EU%20march%2028%202012%20-%20EnglishBinienda.pdf

This is just visualization of his simulation with conclusions, but not the calculations - as you suggest. I hope this was just a slip of your tongue and you are not trying to mislead us. :-) But don't let those few pages with basic parameters fool you: good to see them but they alone are not enough to recreate his calculations on LS-DYNA simulation software package.

To do so the full input data would be needed. One of them is the internal structure of the wing Tu-154M. The image presented in the report comes from the operation manual of the airplane's manufacturer, and it lacks basic dimensions. Binienda somehow approximated these, and - rightly or wrongly - anyone could do it too; probably coming with different results. But that's not a point: in order to recreate Binienda's simulation the exact same data is needed.

For the same reason Binienda has been asked for several months now, by Artymowicz and others, to provide every single data and parameter setup in the input to his LS-DYNA program. And that includes all details of the mesh - every single node location, boundary conditions and initial conditions. For whatever reason, dr. Binienda pretends not to hear such calls. Nobody is going to steal his proprietary technology, for heaven sake. He should come clean here, otherwise his motivations and markmanship will be forever questioned. Giving away input data would not cause him any trouble since such input data file must exist, as this is a standard methodology in any FEM programs. This is needed in order to be able to recreate an original simulation or to use it as a basis for small modifications to be saved as improved version of the input.

There are many people in Poland and abroad, who are capable to simulate at least the first phase of the crash: some on their Linux boxes using free FEM packages, some using commercial ANSYS or LS-DYNA packages. But this not a point, because any such simulation would be questioned over and over again:

- Yes, but your software is not professional
- Yes, but you used ANSYS, which is not as good as LS-DYNA (a hypothetical ridiculous comparison, but nothing seems banned in this game)
- Yes, but you are not as experienced as prof. Binienda, so you must have made some mistakes
- Yes, but you are politically motivated, so you bent the principles of science

So the only right way is this:
- Get the prof. Binienda simulation input data and raw output data (used by visualization package)
- Lease LS-DYNA package (Educational or 30-Day-Demo). Make sure that the version is exactly the same as the one used by prof. Binienda
- Run the simulation. Compare results. If they are exactly the same as Binienda's - you are fine. Otherwise check for bugs of some sort.

- Introduce your corrections to Binienda's input data. For example dr. Artymowicz charges that dr. Binienda used wrong grid size at the vicinity of the impact.

- Make your results public for others to compare


I have never said that dr. Binienda is not qualified for the job, specifically simulating the first phase of the crash. But he is just a human being, prone to mistake making. Judging by his blog entries, dr. Artymowicz is better qualified for the second part of the simulation: aerodynamic of the broken wing tip and the plane itself. As I already said it few times before - both are experts in their disciplines and any of the two could run the simulation. But dr. Artymowicz has additional practical advantage of having experienced himself lift, drag, rolls, half-rolls and other such manoeuvres; thus being able to soundly judge some realistic or unrealistic hypotheses.


Funny how it is OK to go on TV and babble away in company of Macierewicz, who is obviously politically motivated and an author of ridiculous theories of helium over Smolensk, vacuum bomb, and explosions in the plane. I would like to believe that prof. Binienda's motivation are clean. However, I am questioning his sound judgement in joining doctors Szuladzinski and Nowaczyk in their bing-bang theory.

I am not an aficionado of dr. Artymowicz, but some of his charges make sense. I outlined them them already in several posts before.

Boletus - I'd just like to say that I've really enjoyed your recent posts on this thread.

Yes, funny. Calling the kettle black etc. comes to mind.


Yes, Nowaczyk`s theory about the plane disintegrating in the air is gaining momentum. :):):):)


I am afraid it isn`t the end of speculations.... What else will Macierewicz and Co come up with? :)_:):):)

are we still on this topic! hey get a life and move on! there are things far more important than this sh*t eh!!! I dont understant why the govt is spending so much time and money on this thing rather than sorting out other things! What a shame!

Like what? :):):)


Hmm, I think the government has spent what was to spent.


Shame on magicians who try to turn their theories into facts, instead of the opposite.

Well, maybe, I'm not watching closely, the only reason I posted in this thread lately were your posts.
I think that all details could be clarified and there is no sinister motives as you seems to suggest.


I still do not see how that would help - but let it go.


Thats different, he is presenting his simulation, not his fault that the only politician interested in his results is Maciarewicz (intelligent, and very down to Earth fellow), I'm sure if Tusk would have asked him he would have had presented his simulation in Tusk company rather than M.


As I said I haven't been watching closely all those developments. However I understand that all the data Binienda used in his stimulations comes from Russian report.

(I understand what you said about data from B. stimulations, but that would be recreating his simulation) Wouldn't be more prudent and fruitful to take original data from the Russian report and conduct their own stimulation - if both simulations would differ then there would be question of checking of both calculations or conduct yet another one.

So far it looks like A. is saying, that cannot be right let me check your notebook - he isn't B. teacher or mentor.

I don't think it works like that, but anyway that is not important.
The important part is - calculations and stimulation can be check - if he is wrong there is plenty experts on the globe, prove him wrong - simples !

So you are still mourning about the dead? Come on move on the world is moving forward not backwards! The country isnt even ready for the EURO but people still got time to think about some grave!

local_fela

Maybe the Poles will 'move on' when the truth comes out. Funny that a new 'pro europe' party is elected after the death of the President. ;)

If you don`t understand what it is all about, why don`t you return to watching TV? I am sure it will enlighten you more than participating here. Don`t waste your time - PF is too difficult for you.

You have your opinions and I have mine. I think the 'wake' style is shocking personally. As for grief, It is not about a show. Seriously how can people have a laugh and a good time when someone close to them has died? It seems abnormal to me, almost inhumane. Not to say you should not move on with your life and people in Poland do but it takes time. Time is a natural healer, you do not spend the rest of your life grieving but you do not have to 'get on with your life' within a few days of someone's passing, do you?

Dude how is it possible you are Polish and hate your country so much? Unless you're lying and you are not Polish at all. You're a British Polak I assume. You can not seriously be attributing getting handouts and getting benefits of other countries as just a Polish trait. Try to find a country where you do not find lazy people who just want handouts. Generalising like you do is stupid. By the way could you tell me who helped Poland out of occupation in 1990 because I am sure it was not the great powers of Britain or the USA.

Your right it was the Pope! The same Pope who turned a blind eye to chile abuse...from the same church that turned a blind eye to Nazi atrocities during the war.

The end of the Cold war wasn't caused by a ship yard worker in Gdansk or a Polish Pope however you Poles like to spin things or even Thatcher and Reag[an. Had the Russian leader had the will to stay communist Poland would still be. Their will was broken by the influence of western culture and media especially undeground radio in the last 60's and 70's. So there we go..... British radio and pop culture had a massive effect on the leaders of Russia....

So for me i'd say Paul McCartney ended communism... Pope John Paul and Lech did nothing instill the notion of freedom into the Russian kids heads.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8232235.stm

Russian rock commentator Artemy Troitsky says in the film: "They alienated a whole generation of young, well-educated, urban Soviet kids from their communist motherland.

"The West spent millions on undermining communism but it had much less impact than The Beatles."

gdyniaguy if you want to see my response go to the 'deleted periodically thread.' It seems the mods on here do not understand simple instructions as 'do not delete this it is my last off topic posts. Honestly I am starting to understand why some people do not bother with this forum.

We like to keep things according to the Forum Rules, not rules made up as we go along.

Yeah funny that. You see my comment related to an off topic post originally made and you took it off, yet other off topic posts are still here. Seems fair right? It seems you pick and choose the off topic posts to take off.

WeilkPolak,Just because your user name has the term in it,doesn't mean you can refer to other Poles as this If I see this,

I will remove it as well as any other slur I encounter from anyone.If you don,t think this is fair then,I don't know what to say.

If the BBC did a report on him calling Poles Polaks alot of people on here and the Polish press would defend him. Probably saying stuff like 'Poland has done alot to address the problem....'

Polak is a racist term...same as saying Jude Raus.

gdnyiaguy, But what I'm getting is that their are enough Poles who find it offensive to be mindful of this.I know that you will defend

any thing negative hurled at the Polish as you have proven in your posts.that's ok you're entitled to the way you feel But understand

this if I see any one using slurs or being ridiculously insulting;I will either remove the post and if it continues I will suspend.This doesn't

matter who it is.

Not always the case. I live in Poland, live with a Pole and work with Polish people. I shop in Polish shops with my hard earned money and pay Polish taxes. If i have a view about Poland, the Poles or the UK i feel like I have as good a right as anybody.

The problem with this forum is you have certian types of people.

a) those who are Polaphile's and who through whatever association feel like the must take the place of the 'official' government spokesman by bigging up all that is written in the Press. Most of the time it's just downright lies and being a resident I have a right to dispell them (however unsavoury this may be) or defend others who live here and have the same experiences.

b) the anti british and american crowd... get on my tats, a one yesterday saying that the brits didn't know how to grieve because they didn't wear black and gry for a month and visit graves as a hobby...who spount on about Yalta and the british empire or how many indians the americans have killed.

c) the general idiots... one called blacks 'sooties' ffs and was glad that poland didn't have any!!!

In general I feel that alot of people on here have a misguided Polish 'rose tinted' view of poland.

Look at all this off topic chat, none of it being taken off.

Double standards still here but forget it I am not bothered.

As far as the term Polak, I do not and will not consider it an offensive term and I do not care if you think it it. Polak is what you say to a Polish man in Polish. If Americans have decided that it is going to be an offensive term for someone who is from Poland, that is up to them. For me it is not. Anyway I call people Polak, that is the Polish spelling, not Polack that I believe is the offensive American one. It is stupid. It would be like me deciding that calling a person Dutch is a racial slur when in the past it was and is a normal term for a person from Holland.

By the way gdyniaguy I stand by the opinion that you do not know how to grieve. British grieving is have a party, celebrate the life of the one that has died and move on. The Polish way is grief, be sad that someone close to you has left, mourn [if you want] and then move on but return to the grave every so often to reflect and show some respect to the dead.

So really what you are saying is that Poland is an ass backward country because it is Catholic while the UK is way too sensible for this. Oh and since when does mourning mean that you have to wear black. Did I say that? Tell me why are exactly do you live in Poland since it is such a crap country stuck in some 'old traditions' according to you. You ever heard or respecting the traditions and customs of a place when you are there. If you do not like it, you know what you can do, go back to the great, intelligent, forward thinking UK.

By the way to the mod, once again checking to see if the double standards are still in place, I cannot use a so called 'slur' and yet this guy can make fun of Catholicism?

weilkPolak, It's not what I think as an American,I have seen other Poles on this sight whom it's offensive to,If see it I will remove it unless admin.

tells me otherwise,IF I'm wrong then I will apologize,to be honest I don't get offended If someone refers to me that way,but that's me,but I am considerate of those who are.Is it too much to ask for you to refrain,I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

gdynianiaguy,If you read your posts,there is no other way you can take it.You have the right to dispell myths as you say,but do you have

to do it in such a brash way?I think not.

Brash.... that's your opinion. Maybe as a Moderator you should 'sit on the fence' a bit more. Everything i say can be backed up with sources.

You can back up it up with sources and that's fine.If you didn't understand that post.this is what I'm saying,If you keep up making crude

blanket statements about Poles or any other race or Nationality,you will be suspended.I don't care if you have a problem with the Polish. I'm asking you to be civil and not inflammatory.

Please show me any remarks that i have made that are crude. If i have made any remarks then they are accurate and i can back them up with sources. Usually they are a reply to inflammatory remarks regarding a post by myself, the english (of course we are all responsible for Yalta) or a general defense of the EUSSR or the Polish Government. I think you have bigger fish to fry them myself on this board...some of the comments I've read about races (blacks and Jews).

P.s. a term is only hurtful if people allow it to be... the scotts call us english sassanachs, the french 'rost beef', the aussies 'poms', the americans 'limies' but do we get upset...hell no...because we have a backbone and are told from a young age that 'sticks and stones, may hurt your bones, but names will never hurt you.'

I think you should start providing links in future, otherwise we might think you're only here to cause trouble.

I already do if i need to. If you have an example of a post were you think a link is needed i will happily supply one.

An article which tries to assess Kaczyński`s true feelings and beliefs: wbj.pl/blog/The_business_of_politics/post-351-does-kaczynski-really-believe-his-brother-was-murdered.htm

has this comment:

I was a Boeing 737 Captain and an Aviation Lawyer involved in several accident investigations worldwide. I have read the entire report of the Smolensk Crash and make the following obsevations:- 1 Most aircraft accidents do not have a single 'cause' but many contributory factors. 2 The Smolensk report identifies many shortcomings, namely pilot training, weather, poor airport preparation, poor risk assessment of the airport etc. 3 However one factor surmounting all of these is that the crew continued the descent below the authorised permitted height of 100metres. Had they not done so many of the other factors would have been irrelevant. 4 Air Traffic Control, whether adequate or not, has no relevance to a Captain's decision to descend below operating limits. 5 There is no evidence to suggest that the aircraft was destroyed by anything other than contact, initially by the port wing hitting the trees, and then the catastrophic impact of the whole aircraft with the ground. In relation to the 'conspiracy' theories, if an aircraft 'accident' were to be used to conduct an 'assassination' the method employed would more likely be a bomb, detonated on a timing device, a radio/telephone signal or a barometric switch. Using any of these methods so close to the ground and seconds from landing would risk failure of the objective. To achive success in an assassination involving as many factors as were involved in this crash would require inconceivable co-ordination, including convincing both pilots to commit suicide. Having read this report I conclude that this was no more than a tragic accident resulting from many factors. The fact that an accident results in the death of the President of a country does not prevent it from being an accident.

freepl.info/2426-eugene-poteat-smolensks-crash

Eugene Poteat on the Smolensk's crash

The whole website is a front for Gazeta Polska, and is quite frankly hilarious. The whole thing is full of ridiculous supposition, theories and absolutely nothing credible whatsoever.

Heck, the front page of the website contains - today -

Russia, Putin, Komorowski, Poland's partition (modern day), Russians, Russia and Putin, Michnik/Gazeta Wyborcza, Donald Tusk. Most of this has absolutely nothing to do with Poland.

Absolutely obsessive and devoid of any real content. Even the link you've posted contains no information but meaningless drivel.