"POLISH death camps" term used by "Parade Magazine" Anti-Polish Bigots

Touche.

I'm not even gonna bother react to some of the posters on this thread. Apparently it's all the Jews fault again and I am being challenged for even daring to say that where two fight two are wrong. Better than to listen to that drivel after being as neutral as one can after the constant nagging of some, I go make some nice pasta dish with sausage and a tomato/mushroom sauce. That's more useful than to listen to the saliva the likes of 1jola spouts, a man who doesn't even seem to understand that I give out to the Jews just as much and was safely elsewhere when Poland needed her ppl the most, but came back with all brave words. Bratwurst, want a plate? :)

Edit: typical 1jola quote: "the Jews tell lies about Poland and the Poles retaliate with facts." How moronic can you be to maintain that statement. I think ppl like 1jola do more damage to Poland than any Jew could ever hope to be accused of by him.

>^..^<

M-G (while delicicious, unfortunately not Polish sausage)

It's absolutely staggering that Jews pop up on almost every thread. The population of Israel is only 1 million more than that of Scotland for crying out loud. Besides, it's old news. Where is the talk of modern Poland?

Death camps in Poland more like. You have to be careful with terminology.

Seanus, that's because the likes of 1jola who are obsessed with the Jews and want to maintain that old animosity that has sickened relations for such a long time. It's a simple as that.

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M-G (refreshed last night his Yugo movies. Seen those movies before, Seanus, and I find it of course disgusting and always have stated that ALL war criminals of that war should be handed over to the Hague)

I don't see what Poland did wrong to justify the alleged smearing of walls with sh9t etc when Israelis come here. Death camps are just absurd! There may have been a few rogue Poles that participated in unsavoury activity but they are very much in the minority.

Now, how about:


...and be done with these endless, boring, tedious discussions!

That was an incident driven out of proportion by some. I do agree that the kiddos who did this should get the spanking of their life in such a manner that they don't even DARE of thinking about doing such a thing again.

Criminals are never in the majority, Seanus, you should know that.

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M-G (pasta is delicious, by the way)

They are when it comes to certain fraternities and rings. Anyway, I think some magazines need to get their facts straight.

I know that and I have already agreed to that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

It cannot be stated enough :) What a ridiculous insinuation!

I must say there's lots and lots of anti-Jewish drivel on PF. Heck, create a thread on the beauty of flowers and I bet you'll get some moronic posts claiming flowers would've been so much prettier had it not been for the Jews. I'm exaggerating to make a point.

Some use the current political events in Israel as an excuse to spew out their venom. Not all of course, and there's some valid critisism toward the state of Israel but many love the fact they can now openly profess their disgust with the Jews.

Surely, like you said both sides might have valid claims but there's a deep ingrained anti-Jewish bias amongst many, not all, but many Poles (and other nationalities too). Many, many years ago my grandfather had a conversation with his friend about the difficulties of getting some parts for their farm equipment. I was a kid so I don't remember the full conversation and part of it I didn't understand, but what I do remember is that somehow "ci Żydzi" had something to do with it. At the time I simply believed in everything he said but now, many years later I've realized that my grandfather, who's no longer with us, was as rasist as it gets. He might have had some valid reasons for his feelings, who knows? I'll always cherish my memories of him but I also know that he was a rasist nevertheless.

Well there is good and bad in all groups so surely there are bad Poles who are anti-Jewish. But I just wonder if some of the Poles you claim to have "ingrained anti-Jewish bias" are REACTING to the anti-Polish bias of certain Jews?? Perhaps its a little like what came first, the chicken or the egg thing?

Just remember Jews would not be so stupid to CHOOSE to live in a country like Poland with its "ingrained anti-Jewish bias" for ONE THOUSAND YEARS. That would be either stupid, masochistic, crazy or a comnbination of the above.

I respect your effort Skysoulmate for trying to be fair to the Jewish people and defending them against perceived anti-Jewish bias from Poles and others. But I just hope there are Jewish "Skysoulmates" in Jewish forums defending Poles when the Polish-Haters in the Jewish forums are making likewise anti-Polish comments.

@ Skysoulmate: I remember that my Grandmother, who was generally a wise, kind and warm Jewish woman, didn't want to speak to my dad for days when it turned out that one of his brothers had a German fiancee who was later to become his wife. However, she couldn't keep it up for long as she loved my dad dearly and in heart she was a good woman. I also remember that the only times she got severely angry was when she heard German being spoken (which was not so very unusual, living close to the German border) or when one of my uncles (her sons) spoke jokingly some German words. But in general I hold her memory dearly as she was a good person. My dad's dad however, a Protestant, was a manipulative b*stard who played his children out against eachother. I have hardly any fond memory of him.

@ Mediawatch: I think that witnessing the Holocaust on their own soil being performed by the Nazis was a catalyst in this. And the diverse pogroms that took place after WW2 didn't do the image of the Poles much good. I've read that there were generally a handful of reasons for these pogroms, some of which were big (Kielce) some of them were not so big (Krakau) incidents: the everlasting blood libel (the rumor that Jews sacrifice Christian babies in dark rituals and drank their blood; returning survivors who reclaimed their properties, the welcoming of the Russian soldiers in 1939 (though many seem to forget that Jews knew what was going on in Nazi Germany and therefore simply were glad that they wouldn't fall in the hands of the Nazis) and only later the relative role of the Jews in the CP. I still firmly believe that those pogroms helped forming an image of the Poles as being anti semitic.

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M-G (tiens)

You 'watch media', right?

OK...Then question should be: 'Who owns PARADE magazine?', a glossy supplement that is included in the Sunday edition of many city newspapers.

CondiNast Publications, owned by the very powerful Zionist family, the Newhouses.

Listen, I tell you how bad it gets...I am in a public library, with some time to kill, so I go get a couple of travel books...'Fodor's' to be exact...I get one on Poland...In the beginning of the book, which contained many beautiful pictures of Polish cities. countryside, historic sites, there is a big insert: 'The most moving scene in all of Poland, whether man made or natural is the death camp @ Auschwitz'.

See?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Irving_Newhouse,_Jr.

>^..^<

M-G (doesn't mention anything Zionist in there)

I see your point and agree, an effort is needed on both sides. The reason so many Jews settled in Poland is because of the very liberal and welcoming constitution Poland had in the past, in fact it was a very unique document.

As far as hoping for "Jewish soulmates". About a decade ago a had a chance to train with an Israeli officer. When he found out my herritage I got to listen to all kinds of stories about his relatives who used to live in today's Belarus but at the time Polish areas. We spent some 7 weeks together and all I ever heard was nostalgy and pure adoration for that part of his relatives' past. He was as in love with Poland as one could be and it wasn't to please me, I could sense his sincerity.

Yes, there are many soulmates on both sides but they're drowned out by those full of hate.

I probably should have created a Polish-Jewish friendship thread by posting this blog but got too busy. I emailed this lady a few days ago and she wrote me back, a very nice JEWISH lady who has a high opinion of Poland. Imagine that. She had the date wrong for the constitution day but please read the full article. She's a Jewish skysoulmate if you so will. :)

articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-05-01/news/sfl-rpcol-newcolumn-5110_1_president-lech-kaczynski-poland-katyn

And that is what I have been saying all the time in this thread. Yet I have been accused of being anti-Polish, which is of course absolute nonsense. Both parties have to give in otherwise this nonsense will never come to an end.

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M-G (tiens)

MareGaea,

You seem like you mean well, but I'm afraid you are getting caught up with generalizing about Poles the way some generalize about Jews.

You talk about pogroms by Poles against Jews in Poland AFTER WWII and saying how that can be seen as "giving Poles a bad image". (It was actually the anti-Polish media/New York Times giving the "bad image" of Poland by putting a MICROSCOPE on anything anti-semitic while FAILING to talk about all the good Poland has done for Jews) Since pogroms are a criminal act against Jews, WHY are the criminals (minority of Poland) being used to DEFINE Poland? What percentage of Poles did these pogroms?? 0.01% of Poles?? Yet THEY DEFINE POLES???? Would it be fair to define Jews as Communist thugs and say that is their image because of the disproportionate amount of Jews in Communist governments throughout Eastern Europe including Poland?

Also you DO KNOW that Poland AFTER WWII was NOT controlled by nationalist Poles. It was controlled by Moscow and the Soviets. Do you know Moscow knew about virtually all these pogroms against Jews before they started? Do you know it was in the Soviet Union's interest to have Jews and Poles against each other? Its amazing to me how some Jews look at these "pogroms" so simplistically and in generalizations. They look at these events within a generalization context that they wish others don't view them in.

But this is what I'm trying to say: right after WW2, in exactly the time when all the horrors of the Holocaust come to light, around 40 Jews get killed in an outrage based on some false rumor. How do you think the world outside Poland may have perceived that? The outside world which was still freaking angry about what just had happened in the Holocaust and then this happens, be it a small number? The number is not important, it's the fact that it happened. And one can talk about all underlying reasons, but back then NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY outside of Poland was thinking about any underlying reasons; all they saw was a group of Polish ppl killing a group of Jews RIGHT after the biggest mass murder in history. And you really don't understand what kind of impact that had on the outside world? You really don't see that? It's not about the numbers, it's about the fact that it happened. It was clumsy timing to say the least, but it formed the image of Poland for the outside world. It has nothing to do with propaganda or sth, but if you really cannot see how this affected the outside world, then I would like to recall Anita Prazmowska's words:

(freely transcribed)

"Poles on one hand complain that nobody sees their suffering and problems, while on the other hand they are totally insensitive for what impact their actions may have on the outside world."

You know that I'm right. It may be uncomfortable, and I don't blame you for that.

Just think about when right after WW2 in, for example France, a group of 40 Poles would have been killed. It would've had the same effect on the world outside of France, who would see the French as Pole-killers.

Also, don't forget that it's Americans. They really believe that a kid in Holland some 400 years ago put his finger in a dyke and saved the country from drowning. Things like that tend to lead their own life.

Finally, it was a small group, yes, but you know yourself (also from this forum) that 10 bad apples spoil it for 10.000 good apples.

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M-G (tiens)

Its amazing how much you GENERALIZE!!! I can't believe it!

So some Poles who allegedly killed 40 Jews DEFINE ALL OF POLAND??? And the only reaons why the world "cared" so much about the suffering of Jews is because it is basically the mass media's favorite topic. Many people in the media are liberal Jews lets not kid ourselves, like at the New York Times and Parade magazine.

(Why didn't the killing of 9 million Ukrainians get as much media coverage as the killing of Jews? Are Ukrainians/East Europeans LESS IMPORTANT then Jews?)

You're also not bringing up the Soviet role and Communist Jews who helped spark these anti-semitic events to brand Poland as "anti-semitic" and therefore worthy of being occupied by the Soviet Union.

The Polish-Hating media LOVES to put a MICROSCOPE on the Anti-Polish propaganda of recent Polish-Bashers like Jan Gross who I'm sure you take much of your Anti-Polish viewpoint from, but did you know he said this about Jews in his book "REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD"? I wonder why the New York Times doesn't talk about this?

Page 32 from "REVOLUTION FROM ABROAD"

"What Poles and Ukrainians report, often with biting irony, the Jews do not deny: "Jews greeted the Soviet army with JOY. The youth was spending days and evenings with the soldiers" Jews received incoming Russians enthusiastically , they [the Russians] also trusted them [the Jews]. "The first days of the Bolsheviks' presence were very nice. People went out into the streets, kept looking over the tanks, children walked after the soldiers" Jews WELCOMED the Red Army in 1939, and is not very difficult to explain their initial reaction. For one thing, there were PROPORTIONATELY more communist sympathizers among Jews than among any other nationality in the local population.......

Also why didn't the same media that is so zealous to put a MICROSCOPE on the suffering of Jews NOT put a MICROSCOPE on the suffering of people BY Communist Jews like Stalin's Jews?

Stalin's Jews

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Why didn't the media promote this image of the Jews?

Ok, I give up. If you fail to see the subtleties in my post, then it doesn't matter what I say, it will all be a generalisation.


In 1946? Tell me, which mighty apparatus was already waltzing on ppl's minds for years in favour of the Jews? The Holocaust was just becoming known and then a group of Poles kills yet again a group of Jews. How else could it be perceived at the time?

And by the way, you're now generalizing yourself as well. But it's ok. I understand that no matter what happened, THE POLES WERE ALWAYS GOOD. Yeah, so what if some Poles killed some Jews, so what this sent a ripple throughout Europe and the rest of the world. And you really think this does not have an effect on the outside world? Heck, most Poles were embarrassed to bits about it. And, it's not an "alledged pogrom", the Kielce pogrom, it's a proven one.

I tried to explain why Poles have the image of anti semites. But you don't want to hear them, it seems. So be it. Keep believing it's all a scheme against the Poles, while conveniently ignoring what lies at the basis. If you were ready to accept the reasons on this side of the line, I would have explained the reasons on the Jewish side, but since you're not ready yet, I will just leave it at that and you can keep it nicely among likeminded souls. It's like preaching for one's own parish.

I know the truth hurts, but you will have to accept that some Poles did these things. Just like some Jews did likewise things. And until you are willing to accept the former, you will not be ready for the latter.

>^..^<

M-G (that's what you get for trying to analyse as unbiased as pssbl)

Hi skysoulmate I really enjoyed your post and thanks for the link to that nice Jewish lady. I have known many Poles most were of the generation who fought with General Anders and some with the AK. And only once did I ever here any anti Jewish comments made and that was by a guy who was brain damaged from the war. He used to blame the Jews for Hitler attacking Poland and to argue with him was a waste of time but the poor guy was damaged and who could blame them after a war like that.

Around this time the early sixty I did a lot of work for Jews mainly Polish Hasidic Jews one day I was talking to a young guy and an old man.The old man got upset and started to cry when he left us I asked my friend if I had upset him. He said no their is a lot of them cry when they talk about Poland because they are home sick. In the six months I worked in that area of London I can't remember anyone saying a bad word about Polish Christians. I was not aware about any anti-Jewish or anti-Christian feelings in Poland until I joined this forum.

I found this forum by accident looking for information on Poland to understand about the USSR occupation. To see if the Soviets tried to suppress the peoples religion and to hear it from from Poles and not get it second hand. Most of the guys I knew never saw Poland again a lot of them died in their sixties from chest complaints my mate said it was from the bad conditions in the gulags.

In my opinion it is totally unjust for that rag to refer to them as Polish Death Camps. Maybe it is the time for the Polish Government to make a direct challenge about the ownership of these sites. I don't see why Poland should have to suffer this insult when they had nothing to do with the construction of them and her citizens were murdered in them.

But there were other things involved with the Kielce pogrom that you conveniently ignore like the Polish Jews collaborating with the Soviet Union to spark it. YOU DO KNOW that these types of things did not happen without Moscow knowing about it before hand? Did you know that? You think the Kielce pogrom happened in a vaccuum? Did you know the Soviets and their agents helped to spark this, including Polish Jewish operatives that Stalin installed all throughout Poland and Eastern Europe?

Did you know that Poland was controlled with an IRON FIST from Moscow??? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?????? You keep assuming nationalist Poles ran all of Poland. In that case you may have a point. If the pogrom happened today with nationalist Poles running Poland, you would have a point. But we're talking about SOVIET CONTROLLED POLAND. What do you think the Soviets were ALWAYS trying to do in Poland??? Any guesses??? Oh they just tried to make everyone as happy as can be!

But lets for arguments sake, let's say that this Kielce pogrom was 100% the Polish people's fault and therefore a tiny tiny element of bad Poles makes ALL Poles bad in your book or in the mind of Jews especially those leftists at the Anti-Polish Hate rags like the New York Times (Slimes) or the Parade Magazine. Using that logic, Jews should rightfully have the image of being horrible anti-East European and Anti-Christian bigots for all the horrible things bad Communist Jews did to East European Christians. Right? If a few bad apples make all the apples bad as you say, shouldn't the sick inhuman things Communist Jews did to East European Christians make all Jews look bad? Or is their a double standard when it comes to judging the Jewish people? Because some ethnic groups are more equal then others??

wrong, peak of polish anti semitism was between 2 world wars

"Though the Poles were anti-semitic, they were usually satisfied with random pogroms."
-


wth?


Nope, the peak was after ww2

Before the war it was only some line on how many Jews could get to study since the percentage was higher then the Polish population. Also later on, can't remember if it was 1938 or 1939 that at Universities there were Jewish section and non-Jewish section or something.

I can't recall pogroms in pre-war Poland

This is nonsense. First of all, I already mentioned that most ppl outside PL didn't know or didn't' want to know about any underlying reasons; secondly, there had been other pogroms before in PL, Kielce was actually one of the last; and thirdly, the "Stalinist Jews" are a convenient myth Poles use to wipe their hands clean. In fact, it was more about those silly blood libel rumors again, combined with indeed a political vacuum AND rumors that Jews had a better standard of living. Read case studies about it.

Those were internal factors. Again, do you really think that outsiders cared about them in 1946? Especially when you know that by that time the SU was still some kinda popular for its war effort and the outrage about the Holocaust was still fresh? You assume too much with the knowledge of hindsight, but if you look at it the way the contemporary outsiders looked at it from abroad, you might be surprised.

And besides, you wanted to know what the reasons was for this "anti-Polonism". I gave you one of it and you don't like it. But if you don't like the reasons, or don't want to hear them, you shouldn't ask.

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M-G (tiens)

Thank you. Yeah, in my opinion the much louder minority is very noticeable but they're still a minority. Most Poles and Jews get along just fine, most cherish their own customs and traditions while respecting their neighbors' customs and traditions. Occasionally people focus more on one incident or another to prove that their side was more right than the other side. The truth is, both sides were the real victims. Both the Jews and the Poles were brutalized and used by other powers for their own political purposes. Therefore instead of bickering and arguing over who suffered the most they should say, enough of this BS, let's go back to the basics once again and do something we'd managed so well for hundreds of years - be good neighbors and friends.

If there's one thing I'd disagree with you in your post it'd be the Polish government taking a challenge when the German or Nazi camps are being called Polish. I think you and I should do it, not the government. Imagine if every member of this site, whether Polish or Jewish or German for that matter was to email the editor of whatever publication that makes the error? What if this would spread to other websites where people discuss history? The protests should be tactful and to the point but nevertheless it's we, the people and not our governments who should protest. At least that's my opinion.

PS. I've emailed many websites about similar issues before. Sometimes they reply and sometimes they don't but I always feel better about knowing I tried to make a change.

I agree with what you say people have to take ownership of this protest themselves Which I have done today not as a Pole but as an Irishman I have written to the "Parade Magazine" stating my protest. I have never been to Auschwitz-Birkenau so I know nothing about the tour and I don't know if it is directed mainly at the Jewish victims and if the other victims are forgotten about. My friend was in a Nazi concentration camp and she told me about the lines of huts they were they were housed in mostly AK prisoners. And the terrible conditions they had to endure the starvation which caused their teeth to fall out and their periods to stop. She told me about an all woman orchestra that played at the camp I discovered only last week that Zorya was at Birkenau because that was the only camp with an all lady orchestra. She may have told me the name and I had forgotten It was over fifty years ago since she told me and she is no longer with us. I am now crying thinking of this and the insult to her and my other friends. I will stop now because I find it difficult to see the screen.

Perhaps you are a ******* idiot.


Or, more likely, doing this on purpose to tarnish the image of poles ie. make them out to be on par with the nazis.

That what is so sad about this issue: for some it's just a political game. They don't care whose feelings and memories they are hurting. The generation of my parents remember the war well and they are very angry at such injustice.


I also, twice, had a conversation with journalists about this issue. One was completely oblivious of what my problem is - camps were in Poland so they are Polish camps. Another said that the article was a reprint from a British press so it's not their problem (it was review of some book). But I noticed that they stopped using this phrase since.